DECC minimum enclosure size discussion.

[Zoltag]

Hmm...

I must admit that I am very concerned about the idea of there being a legal rquirement for minimum enclosure size. Typically when legislation is passed that specifies very strict (draconian?) rules, there is a reason behind it - Either the department in question is looking to increase their importance / public profile with lots of high profile arrests / court cases, or they are targeting specific individuals who are not currently breaking any laws (think Al Capone ).

Either way, having rules that are excessive (as people are saying these dimensions will be) opens itself to abuse. Anyone who thinks that they will be alright and these laws really arent designed to catch them, but to protect the animals welfare is naive, to put it simply.

On the other hand, whinging about it in a forum is not the answer. What we should be doing is getting a coordinated focus group together to prepare something challenging the way the new draft is being put together (specifically for the DECC to be more transparent in what it is doing and allowing for a wider scope public consultation process). This needs to be done in a mature, professional manner and then submitted to Peter Garrett and if there is no response to that, then submitted to Greg Hunt. Combine that with a paper based petition of sufficient size and questions will start to flow in parliament and we may see some action happening around it.

If not, there is always the possibility of passing the same information to local MPs and hope that someone becomes interested enough in whats happening to kick up a stink.

If anyone is interested in getting together over this, PM me

 

[FAY]

I think you will find the the committee that has been formed are looking at all these aspects that will come up regarding cage sizes.

 

[ShaunMorelia]

for antaresia theres talk of having hatchie enclosures 6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high
as minimum acceptable standard for one hatchie.

if that was to be done then i'd hate to see what a scrubby or olive needs to be housed in....jeeze!

 

[longte]

The answer is simple

Just spend the bit of money to get a demonstrators licence and then you work under DPI instead of DECC

 

[Slateman]

Everyone does things in different ways and no one way works better than another.

On the issue of keepers who use small enclosures to enable them to keep and breed more is a broad sweeping statement and is in a lot of cases plain wrong.We breed our animals but we are not into mass producing,never have been,never will be.Each of our adult animals are kept individually in 1200x800x600mm enclosures.We also rest our breeders every other year.

If I were to do as you are suggesting then I would be keeping them in much smaller enclosures that would enable me to keep more animals in any given space.You will find that even large breeders use the same or similar cage sizes,I can tell you that Simon Stone uses enclosures of those dimensions also.

On the issue of "Evanescence or the blues" I aint touching that :lol:

So do I my enclosures are 1200x800x600mm and I can see my snakes smiling

 

[nat0810]

I'm with Zoltag. something from the general herpers in writing to either DECC or direct to parliment should be organised.

Fair enough, the committe is made up of herpers, but if all the APS'ers were to get a petition or something going, it would strengthen the case put forward by the committee. I see the strength in numbers principal working on this issue.

It may work it may not. But better to have tried and failed, than to not try at all.

 

[peterjohnson64]

Some people appear to have an insight into the draft standards. Why don't those in the know stop toying with us and publish the complete set of minimum enclosure standards so that we can assess it for ourselves?

The answer to this is quite simple Daz. We were given the draft standards in a document that had the word "Confidential" written all over it. Unfortunately, those of us that have seen the proposal are not at liberty to disclose what is in it as we would then be breaching confidentiality. Any hope we had of being part of the process would be shot if we breached that.

Be comfortable in that knowledge however that the depatment is monitoring this thread. Hence Peter's very wise recommendation to only attack the issue and not the people involved.

And someone mentioned going to thier local MP. That is a great idea but not yeat as nothing formal has been proposed. Theya re stil in the "design" stage/

Also, to the person who keeps an olive with their carpets - hopefully I can find a pic that will be very useful to you. Olives eat carpets you know.

I will now leave the discussion to the rest of you.

 

[peterjohnson64]

Oh, and John Mostyn just told me (via email) that MIranda Gott will be talking at Hawkesbury Herps on Friday 12th June on this very subject. Not much sense in complaining here if you can't make the effort to get to the horses mouth.

 

[Zoltag]

The answer to this is quite simple Daz. We were given the draft standards in a document that had the word "Confidential" written all over it. Unfortunately, those of us that have seen the proposal are not at liberty to disclose what is in it as we would then be breaching confidentiality. Any hope we had of being part of the process would be shot if we breached that.

Be comfortable in that knowledge however that the depatment is monitoring this thread. Hence Peter's very wise recommendation to only attack the issue and not the people involved.

And someone mentioned going to thier local MP. That is a great idea but not yeat as nothing formal has been proposed. Theya re stil in the "design" stage/

Also, to the person who keeps an olive with their carpets - hopefully I can find a pic that will be very useful to you. Olives eat carpets you know.

I will now leave the discussion to the rest of you.

Sounds like you're "in the know", so to speak...

Are you able to speak to DECC and find out whether there will be a more general public consultation process coming up, or at the least find out when the DECC plans to be making the draft available for general public consumption?

 

[Zoltag]

Oh, and John Mostyn just told me (via email) that MIranda Gott will be talking at Hawkesbury Herps on Friday 12th June on this very subject. Not much sense in complaining here if you can't make the effort to get to the horses mouth.

Sounds like that could be interesting - Unfortunately I have no way of getting there...

 

[Jay]

for antaresia theres talk of having hatchie enclosures 6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high
as minimum acceptable standard for one hatchie.

Yet Wokka posted this about carpets.

1000w x 800d x 1800h would comply with the DRAFT.

So either somebody has unreliable information or DECC has no idea which is the larger type

 

[ShaunMorelia]

So either somebody has unreliable information or DECC has no idea which is the larger type

Somebody has unreliable information.
Everyone should just relax and wait for the info to come out, if it ever does.

 

[coz666]

i think most of us know if we have ample space for our herps.
ive been thinking about this and maybe we arent looking at the real picture..... what if????
they are under pressure to allow herps to be sold commercially, which they oppose
everyone pushes for retailers to be able to sell herps ...
if they pass this first, it makes it near impossible for a retailer to sell herps. which solves the problem.
if you think they have enough man power to hassle the average herpist, you are mistaken.
but if you make yourself get attention, by bad deals and lowsy herps you will be on their to do list for sure.

 

[FAY]

Somebody has unreliable information.
Everyone should just relax and wait for the info to come out, if it ever does.

Exactly.

 

[peterjohnson64]

I am only "in the know" because I am very active in helping out at my local herp society. Each herp society is aware of what is going on. And I would also guess that all the other herp societies are like ours and in desperate need of more people to help run them. They are not a closed shop. Get involved and you will not need to read all of these threads most of which are full of totally incorrect information.

 

[Colin]

for antaresia theres talk of having hatchie enclosures 6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high
as minimum acceptable standard for one hatchie.

Yet Wokka posted this about carpets.

So either somebody has unreliable information or DECC has no idea which is the larger type

thats GOLD ummmm :lol: I was only joking

geez I expected people would have realised that by the absolutely ridiculous size enclosure for one hatchie of
6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high.. but then again that does sound a nice sized hatchie tub..
wonder if you can get this size in a 60 tub rack?

I was going to add at the bottom "joking" but thought nah.. even on APS no one is going to believe that.... I guess I was mistaken

sorry for leading you up the garden path Jay.. lucky its not true otherwise you'd need to rent a factory just to house one clutch of hatchies

 

[Jay]

I was going to add at the bottom "joking" but thought nah.. even on APS no one is going to believe that.... I guess I was mistaken

With people in the thread believing their snake likes a particular band, somebody believing those cage sizes to be legit wouldn't surprise me at all haha.
Was joking too about DECC not knowing which is the larger type. I mean at least one person down there must know what species is what (though they're hiding awfully well)

 

[wokka]

I am only "in the know" because I am very active in helping out at my local herp society. Each herp society is aware of what is going on. And I would also guess that all the other herp societies are like ours and in desperate need of more people to help run them. They are not a closed shop. Get involved and you will not need to read all of these threads most of which are full of totally incorrect information.

Like Peter said, if you support your local herp society they can suppport you. I will be at to-nights SOFAR meeting if anyone wishs to discuss the issue, and yes I am one of the chosen few who is "in the know"!

 

[Lozza]

Like Peter said, if you support your local herp society they can suppport you.

Assuming everyone has a local herp society I refuse to drive a 6hr round trip to my "local" herp meetings lol

 

[swaddo]

Assuming everyone has a local herp society I refuse to drive a 6hr round trip to my "local" herp meetings lol

indeed, my closest "local herp club" is interstate and wont be "in the know"