DECC minimum enclosure size discussion.

[Lozza]

Human handling is minimised
Clinical procedures are emphasised

How is this a bad thing? I'd say reducing stress by less handling and clinical procedures such as good hygiene are not a bad thing.

Two of my waters [liasis mackloti], one male one female, love rolling in/ living in their pee and always stink a bit
The other lives in a hollow log and only goes near water when she wants to pee etc
[this is all in one enclosure] and all three are magnificent to handle

See above for good hygiene Have you ever considered that the other might be stressed which is why it stays in the log?

My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????

:lol:

 

[Colin]

Breeders dont need large enclosures as they are simply there to make money - that is just so wrong and and absolute garbarge.

But my snakes are as happy as they can be - and how do you know this sweeping generalization? Did little pinchy snuggle you? Or does he give you a smiley face when hes happy?

I My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????

so what are you saying here? that your biggest snake is an Evanescence and Blues fan? Do they prefer the wiggles? or christian death? do your snakes have ears? Or do you just imagine they prefer different musical styles? Is the theme music to the twilight zone :lol: the song they dance to the most?

 

[asis]

1000w x 800d x 1800h would comply with the DRAFT. It goes to show how opinions vary. Mungus, I assume when you posted you thought your suggested size would be heaps big enough, eh??

800mm deep will be imposible for most and very impactical for all as it simply wont fit through standard doorways esp if the door can only be opened to 90 degrees. :shock:

 

[GSXR_Boy]

My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
When either Evanescence are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????

Maybe it is trying to muffle that whiny skanks "music"??

 

[Pujols]

I've heard that the minimum tank requirements will be 1 and 1/2 the length of the reptile. So imagine if you had a 12 foot Olive :S

 

[Chris1]

Maybe it is trying to muffle that whiny skanks "music"??

hahahahahahahahaha, nice one!

 

[No-two]

I just was questioned about my comment on breeders enclosures
Here is my answer

What I said was regarding the size of enclosures and I stand by that
Breeders must look after their animals perfectly, as breeding animals, and that is vastly different to looking after them as pets
If a breeder is not doing breeding to make money hes in the wrong business
Yes
Breeders usually look after their snakes better than most pet owners but we are talking totally different things here
A breeder wants to fit the maximum possible number of snakes into the smallest possible space for the shortest possible period of time
Human handling is minimised
Clinical procedures are emphasised

Pet owners should be doing things in a vastly different manner
....
AS far as snakes having personalities I also stand by that
Supposedly GTPs and Jungles are biters, and some are
but most are pussycats that come straight out of their hides and seem to enjoy human contact
That defines what I said perfectly
Some are biters and never tame down
Others welcome contact
Yet they are of the same species and similar in size
[if that isnt different personality what is it?]

Two of my waters [liasis mackloti], one male one female, love rolling in/ living in their pee and always stink a bit
The other lives in a hollow log and only goes near water when she wants to pee etc
[this is all in one enclosure] and all three are magnificent to handle

Two of my coastals spend all their time in the top areas of the enclosure yet the other stays down the bottom with the big olive most of the time

Before I take snakes out to a show I let them select who is doing what today
If a snake ducks away it means they dont want to go that day
Cool
I just pick up the one that wants to go out

My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????

Has to be the second or third stupidest post I've seen on aps.

 

[-Matt-]

Has to be the second or third stupidest post I've seen on aps.

First stupidest for me!

 

[Daz_McC]

Some people appear to have an insight into the draft standards. Why don't those in the know stop toying with us and publish the complete set of minimum enclosure standards so that we can assess it for ourselves?

 

[swaddo]

perhaps they are subject to an NDA? (Non Disclosure Agreement for those who dont know)

 

[abbott75]

There is an incredible amount of very new users on this thread. I don't know if I should be suspicious or not...

 

[-Matt-]

There is an incredible amount of very new users on this thread. I don't know if I should be suspicious or not...

Ive been thinking the exact same thing :?

 

[Aslan]

There is an incredible amount of very new users on this thread. I don't know if I should be suspicious or not...

I will point out the difference;

The respected, recognised people who have given their input in this thread have been speaking from a knowledgable perspective and are 'in the know' in regards to these proposals. Not too difficult as the idea has been thrown around with the authorities for at least the last 12 months...

The nonsense 'very new users' are criticising long established keepers about their conditions whilst housing carpets with olives next to waters that smell of stale piss...

...feel free to use this as a guideline into which posts to take on board and which to ignore...

 

[mungus]

I will point out the difference;

The respected, recognised people who have given their input in this thread have been speaking from a knowledgable perspective and are 'in the know' in regards to these proposals. Not too difficult as the idea has been thrown around with the authorities for at least the last 12 months...

The nonsense 'very new users' are criticising long established keepers about their conditions whilst housing carpets with olives next to waters that smell of stale piss...

...feel free to use this as a guideline into which posts to take on board and which to ignore...

Thats GOLD............:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[lemon]

Minimum size

Guidelines sound better than enforceable laws,
Don't Japanese people sleep in their drawers?
Are the National parks concerned with their race?
Surely a python will thrive in a similar space!
If your turtles kept in the toilet you're an obvious fool,
But it doesn't require its own olympic swim pool.
Animal welfare concerns should be common sense,
The RSPCA shouldn't have to jump your fence.
Healthy herps is what all of us desire,
The veterans on here know what they require.
Maybe a 10 year old with 30 bucks should pass a test,
Before they go pinning their licence on their chest.
Hobbo, Aslan or Mattsnake could write the quiz,
Their all well respected in the python biz.
Basic physiology knowledge would be on the rise,
More valuable than a set enclosure size.
Scientific opinions vary - heat lamps or hot rocks?
I haven't even got past boxer shorts or jocks?
:lol::lol:

 

[Colin]

either way what is a suitable size for a jungle? especially when their range is 4-8ft? what about the size for hatchies etc?

what size enclosure is suitable for an adult (or near adult) jungle python?
There is no one answer to this like x ft by x ft x x ft as there is considerable variation in this species of different locality size and of individual size. The 4 foot jungle would probably be fine in an enclosure that may be a little cramped for the 7foot plus jungle.. but if the big jungle doesnt move around the enclosure a lot usually.. it may actually be ok.

I think the best person to answer this question is the person (the primary care giver) who has actually kept this species for a reasonable amount of time and in sufficent numbers and in locality variations to see some variation in individual characters, sized animals and needs. You could ask someone who has kept (for example) brown tree snakes but not jungles and they could give an answer, but probably not as exact as someone that owns, cares for and observes the animals in question, and has some experience with the species and their maintenance.

Does this sound logical and reasonable?

I could say 3 foot long x 2 foot high x 2 foot deep but there would be some jungles (big and small) that would (or could) just fall outside off the average cage size suggested. But thats a reasonable size in my opinion to start with and have as a "recomended" size but not legal size for jungle pythons.

And if the animals kept in these size enclosures look exceptionally healthy and breed for the owner thats another pointer that they are reasonably happy with their environment. But there's always exceptions.

Also bear in mind that sometimes two (a pair) can also be kept in the same sized enclosure that one is kept in. If you think about it.. its basically the same and if kept clean really doesn't make much difference if theres one or two (provided they get on well) in there.

Cage size is really an open ended question that cant be nailed down to some exact figure to suit an academic. Theres a "range" of sizes of enclosures suitable dependiong on the individual animal, their specific size and their general species requirements.

what Im saying is I feel the best person to decide the requiremnts of an individual animal is the primary care giver provided they have some experience in the care and maintenance of the particular species and not some well meaning academic with little or no hands on experience..

 

[nat0810]

Guidelines sound better than enforceable laws,
Don't Japanese people sleep in their drawers?
Are the National parks concerned with their race?
Surely a python will thrive in a similar space!
If your turtles kept in the toilet you're an obvious fool,
But it doesn't require its own olympic swim pool.
Animal welfare concerns should be common sense,
The RSPCA shouldn't have to jump your fence.
Healthy herps is what all of us desire,
The veterans on here know what they require.
Maybe a 10 year old with 30 bucks should pass a test,
Before they go pinning their licence on their chest.
Hobbo, Aslan or Mattsnake could write the quiz,
Their all well respected in the python biz.
Basic physiology knowledge would be on the rise,
More valuable than a set enclosure size.
Scientific opinions vary - heat lamps or hot rocks?
I haven't even got past boxer shorts or jocks?
:lol::lol:

You have way too much time on your hands mate. Better get some more herps to keep you busy

May have to give em up if the requirements pass

 

[Chimera]

With such a variance in behaviour for various locality types and individuals in the same species how can you justify a blanket rule? When moving growing pairs into a larger enclosure invariably one will respond worse to the other for the increased space. I have no doubts that some of my enclosures would not meet the sizes being discussed here, yet every year at their vet checkup EVERY one of my snakes is given a thumbs up from David Vella on overall health and body condition.

I understand that in many cases laws require literal rules to be properly enforced, but if there is no minimum yard size for dogs why define enclosure size for snakes? Government bodies have little trouble in identifying and laying charges for poorly kept mammalian pets, perhaps we need the same approach for reptilian pets. After all enclosure size will not prevent a neglected beardy from developing a metabolic bone disease.

 

[Angharat]

I will point out the difference;
The nonsense 'very new users' are criticising long established keepers about their conditions whilst housing carpets with olives next to waters that smell of stale piss...

...feel free to use this as a guideline into which posts to take on board and which to ignore...

Play nice. The new users are not a homogenous mass. I doubt that the old users are either.

This is the sort of thread that everyone should have a vested interest in. I'd like to know if the 900mm by 450mm by 450mm enclosure I've got my adult stimmie in will be declared substandard. If I ever decide to breed I'd also like to know what DECC deems acceptable for hatchies, etc.

No waters that smell like pee here.

 

[Colin]

. I'd also like to know what DECC deems acceptable for hatchies,
.

for antaresia theres talk of having hatchie enclosures 6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high
as minimum acceptable standard for one hatchie.