DECC minimum enclosure size discussion.

[wokka]

The only problem with the most experienced keepers is that at times they might have their own interest at heart. Some keep snakes in " too small enclosures " IMO, the smaller the cage, the more cages they can keep, which equals to more snakes, more breeding pairs, more hatchies, more $$$ etc.
So I'm in favour for a 1000W x 700D x 1800H enclosure for diamonds, jungles etc.
I cant see the problem really, and its got to be more benifical to the snake.............surely.
Just my 2 bob's worth.......:lol:

Just for interest that cage would be too small under the draft standards.

 

[mungus]

Just for interest that cage would be too small under the draft standards.

Well, what would be the correct size...................
I'm a bit slow on these things wokka.........:lol:

 

[wokka]

1000w x 800d x 1800h would comply with the DRAFT. It goes to show how opinions vary. Mungus, I assume when you posted you thought your suggested size would be heaps big enough, eh??

 

[wokka]

If it were a guideline you would probably be close enough but as a standard you could get pinged for 100mm!

 

[pythons73]

So i wonder if they would go out off their way to ping someone for a measly 100mm,

 

[buck]

This is going to be a major step backwards. How many keepers, including the bigger breeders, can house anything but modest collections if those sizes are the guidlines? It will basically equate to less animals being bred which will drive prices up and end up making it difficult for the next generation of hobbyists to be able to afford to purchase animals.

Typical of DECC. They have gone years ignoring the calls of the hobby to put Womas on class 1 and as soon as they do they have to meddle some more. Someone new taken over in a position in authority there trying to make a name for themselves???

It is a given that most snakes in large spaces feel threatened. Why would this be considered to be beneficial to their health?

 

[Ewan]

Quite simply, before they start enforcing cage sizes they should start enforcing hygiene and husbandry issues. As has been pointed out, a tub/rack system of adequate size is a far more suitable environment in this regard than a bedroom sized enclosure..........sceptical...

I agree with Aslan.

There a whole lot of other issues that need some urgent attention regarding reptile welfare in captivity.

In regards to snakes, IMO, inappropriately sized large enclosure can have negative impacts on the animals welfare.

 

[Colin]

Its so typical of them to enforce another law onto us, when they have probably never kept a reptile in their lives...Let me guess ...a captive reptile needs enough room in his cage to exercise and run around and take the kiddies out to play football....
Seriously though, how big are we talking???

NPWS are getting their act together.

I agree.. Its a totally ridiculous suggestion that shows just how much their advisors are ill informed.

If the NPWS doesn't have anything constructive, helpful or anything that will significantly improve the keeping of reptiles... maybe these public servants should just do what public servants usually do best. (1) nothing (2) shuffle papers and look like they are actually doing something but in fact are still doing point (1)


If NSW NPWS are "getting their act together" how come I still seem to have to wait not the supposed 5 working days, and not the usual 7 working days.. but now well over 14 days for the issue of import and export permits that cost me $20 each? Surely these permits can be done in no more time than 5-10 mins (and thats with one arm tied behind your back and blindfolded)
How they can justify the value of these overpriced permits when you have to wait an eternity for them beats me.

I'd even be content with paying the ridiculously high $20 fees per form if I received these forms in a reasonable time frame (like a few days) but I guess thats just too much to expect

 

[-Peter]

The thing to do here is not start directing barbs at DECC and denigrating individuals. Why go out of your way to insult and belittle people who are employed to do what they do.
Get up and start lobbying. Get informed. Get involved and support the groups and individuals who are trying to put our case forward in a real and positive way.
Most of the comments on here would sway Joe Public to the DECC guidleines.
As serious practioners in the hobby we need to present and educated response not a reactionary one. We will lose otherwise.
Several posters already are doing just that.

 

[lovey]

Exhibited animals don't come under DECC but under DPI. DPI also have a new draft for their act.

Gird

I had a quick look at the new DPI draft for reptiles last week. I'll have to have a good read and compare to the old one.

 

[longte]

My knowledge only comes from my snakes
But this is absolute rubbish about snakes not having personalities and various likes dislikes etc
Every snake I own is different to the others
Yes I realise snakes have small brains but I also know they dont operate only on the three F's
[fear food and finding a mate]
1000 x 500 x 2000mm is not a large enclosure for a 2000mm snake
It is large enough but not huge
Snakes, particularly arborial species, like to stretch out [whereas my waters couldn't care less and would probably be happy in anything]

Breeders dont need large enclosures as they are simply there to make money

Pet owners should look at the health and well being of their pets

If I hold my hand out I expect every snake I own to immediately climb up my arm
[the only exceptions would be after a good feed or just prior to shedding]
If they don't want to climb I look for what is wrong

So maybe my enclosures are too big
But my snakes are as happy as they can be

 

[mungus]

1000w x 800d x 1800h would comply with the DRAFT. It goes to show how opinions vary. Mungus, I assume when you posted you thought your suggested size would be heaps big enough, eh??

You got me wokka..............:lol:
But, I was only using roundfigures ....1050w x 810D x 1860 internally.......getting closer now..
But when my new herp room is up and running, my STD large enclosures with be
1200W x 600D x 1800H Approx. for my diamonds, jungles, darwins, bredli etc.
But to tell you the truth, I think these new laws regarding enclosure's will not get through.
Cheers,
Aleks.

 

[Slateman]

My knowledge only comes from my snakes
But this is absolute rubbish about snakes not having personalities and various likes dislikes etc
Every snake I own is different to the others
Yes I realise snakes have small brains but I also know they dont operate only on the three F's
[fear food and finding a mate]
1000 x 500 x 2000mm is not a large enclosure for a 2000mm snake
It is large enough but not huge
Snakes, particularly arborial species, like to stretch out [whereas my waters couldn't care less and would probably be happy in anything]

Breeders dont need large enclosures as they are simply there to make money

Pet owners should look at the health and well being of their pets

If I hold my hand out I expect every snake I own to immediately climb up my arm
[the only exceptions would be after a good feed or just prior to shedding]
If they don't want to climb I look for what is wrong

So maybe my enclosures are too big
But my snakes are as happy as they can be

I disagree with 70%t of what you are stating. I am saying this not because I like to start fight, so don't get upset.
I will try to discover personalities in my collection. I noticed that some snakes do act differently than others, but did not know that this is due they personalities.

 

[craig23]

They miss identify species in a ballot that are in their care, they leave out Varanids on the new species list, they take weeks to approve an import permit which isnt even required in other states, I have applied for a new species code, which has taken over 3 months,... they clearly dont have the resourses or expertise to do what they already have on thier plate.

Telling experienced keepers how to keep their animals that they cant even identify, should be not even in consideration.

My question is, how do we get our act together and fight this? plenty of talk about it, no one seems to be inviting people to get together?

 

[Colin]

my STD large enclosures.

I hate to think what exactly you've been up to with those STD (sexually transmitted diseases) enclosures mate :lol:

 

[craig23]

Lol

 

[longte]

I just was questioned about my comment on breeders enclosures
Here is my answer

What I said was regarding the size of enclosures and I stand by that
Breeders must look after their animals perfectly, as breeding animals, and that is vastly different to looking after them as pets
If a breeder is not doing breeding to make money hes in the wrong business
Yes
Breeders usually look after their snakes better than most pet owners but we are talking totally different things here
A breeder wants to fit the maximum possible number of snakes into the smallest possible space for the shortest possible period of time
Human handling is minimised
Clinical procedures are emphasised

Pet owners should be doing things in a vastly different manner
....
AS far as snakes having personalities I also stand by that
Supposedly GTPs and Jungles are biters, and some are
but most are pussycats that come straight out of their hides and seem to enjoy human contact
That defines what I said perfectly
Some are biters and never tame down
Others welcome contact
Yet they are of the same species and similar in size
[if that isnt different personality what is it?]

Two of my waters [liasis mackloti], one male one female, love rolling in/ living in their pee and always stink a bit
The other lives in a hollow log and only goes near water when she wants to pee etc
[this is all in one enclosure] and all three are magnificent to handle

Two of my coastals spend all their time in the top areas of the enclosure yet the other stays down the bottom with the big olive most of the time

Before I take snakes out to a show I let them select who is doing what today
If a snake ducks away it means they dont want to go that day
Cool
I just pick up the one that wants to go out

My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????

 

[craig23]

Longte, I would suggest a snake roaming free around a lounge room while people are traffic TV/music is being played, is anything but a "happy" snake. Probably highly stressed. You are not a snake, and dont know whats going on in its head.
Snakes by nature are secretive animals, they spend much of there lives hiding to stay out of sight of preditors. A snake does not have the capacity to know you and your family are not a threat, and thus would most likely be stressed the entire time it is roaming free in plane sight.

We know what we know of snakes by studying their behaviour in the wild. They certainly do not go out of there way to be in plane sight of bigger animals that could kill them.

Infact I could go as far as saying letting a snake roam free around a house while people are around, and the tv/stereo is blaring away, should be considered totally unacceptable husbandry technigue that is compramising the animals health.

 

[Slateman]

I just was questioned about my comment on breeders enclosures
Here is my answer

What I said was regarding the size of enclosures and I stand by that
Breeders must look after their animals perfectly, as breeding animals, and that is vastly different to looking after them as pets
If a breeder is not doing breeding to make money hes in the wrong business
Yes
Breeders usually look after their snakes better than most pet owners but we are talking totally different things here
A breeder wants to fit the maximum possible number of snakes into the smallest possible space for the shortest possible period of time
Human handling is minimised
Clinical procedures are emphasised

Pet owners should be doing things in a vastly different manner
....
AS far as snakes having personalities I also stand by that
Supposedly GTPs and Jungles are biters, and some are
but most are pussycats that come straight out of their hides and seem to enjoy human contact
That defines what I said perfectly
Some are biters and never tame down
Others welcome contact
Yet they are of the same species and similar in size
[if that isnt different personality what is it?]

Two of my waters [liasis mackloti], one male one female, love rolling in/ living in their pee and always stink a bit
The other lives in a hollow log and only goes near water when she wants to pee etc
[this is all in one enclosure] and all three are magnificent to handle

Two of my coastals spend all their time in the top areas of the enclosure yet the other stays down the bottom with the big olive most of the time

Before I take snakes out to a show I let them select who is doing what today
If a snake ducks away it means they dont want to go that day
Cool
I just pick up the one that wants to go out

My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????

OK OK OK I am sorry. I just had no idea that my coastals stay in different area in the cage because of personality. My apology.
I thought that they choosing different hight to get right temperature they need.
But I am still learning and keeping my mind open to different view.

 

[Ramsayi]

I just was questioned about my comment on breeders enclosures
Here is my answer

What I said was regarding the size of enclosures and I stand by that
Breeders must look after their animals perfectly, as breeding animals, and that is vastly different to looking after them as pets
If a breeder is not doing breeding to make money hes in the wrong business
Yes
Breeders usually look after their snakes better than most pet owners but we are talking totally different things here
A breeder wants to fit the maximum possible number of snakes into the smallest possible space for the shortest possible period of time
Human handling is minimised
Clinical procedures are emphasised

Pet owners should be doing things in a vastly different manner
....
AS far as snakes having personalities I also stand by that
Supposedly GTPs and Jungles are biters, and some are
but most are pussycats that come straight out of their hides and seem to enjoy human contact
That defines what I said perfectly
Some are biters and never tame down
Others welcome contact
Yet they are of the same species and similar in size
[if that isnt different personality what is it?]

Two of my waters [liasis mackloti], one male one female, love rolling in/ living in their pee and always stink a bit
The other lives in a hollow log and only goes near water when she wants to pee etc
[this is all in one enclosure] and all three are magnificent to handle

Two of my coastals spend all their time in the top areas of the enclosure yet the other stays down the bottom with the big olive most of the time

Before I take snakes out to a show I let them select who is doing what today
If a snake ducks away it means they dont want to go that day
Cool
I just pick up the one that wants to go out

My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????

Everyone does things in different ways and no one way works better than another.

On the issue of keepers who use small enclosures to enable them to keep and breed more is a broad sweeping statement and is in a lot of cases plain wrong.We breed our animals but we are not into mass producing,never have been,never will be.Each of our adult animals are kept individually in 1200x800x600mm enclosures.We also rest our breeders every other year.

If I were to do as you are suggesting then I would be keeping them in much smaller enclosures that would enable me to keep more animals in any given space.You will find that even large breeders use the same or similar cage sizes,I can tell you that Simon Stone uses enclosures of those dimensions also.

On the issue of "Evanescence or the blues" I aint touching that :lol: