interesting..

[Cheyne_Jones]

Have all our carpet subspecies had their full genetic makeup mapped by scientists as yet? Would be a shame to assume they are the same even though they all look completely different and come from very different habitats only to find out that deep in their genetics they are actually different. If anyone can present me with a scientific paper explaining that they have all been DNA profiled to be exactly the same I will eat my shirt and finally shut up on this topic.

 

[Tinky]

Colin,

My point was that dog breeders have been crossing breeds since Noah was a boy, and it is an accepted practice. Sure you end up with a mongrel, (mutt, bitsa), but they have there place, and specific combinations have been marketed such as labradoodles, Snoozels etc.

Do we need to call a Carpet cross Jungle a Cargle, or do we call it a Mutt snake. Does wanting a Black Headed Olive make me an inferior herper.

Hope that clarifies my position and adds to the thread.

Yes the Adder cross comment was a bit of frivolous nonsense.

Cheers

 

[waruikazi]

Syeph, this is what you call a strawman argument. You have invented the problem that you are arguing agaisnt, essentially arguing with yourself. Don't give up just find a credible argument and some evidence to back it up.

i give up, you win, do whatever you like without precaution. realease as many of your ugliest mongrels into the wild as you like to strengthen our native genetics if you think its the right thing to do. go ahead and release exotic species while you're at it. chop down a couple of trees too. then you'll be able to tell your kids what australias animals and ecosystem was like when you were a kid. as i assume you parents told you, as my parents have told me how many animals they used to see they are now either rare and endangered or extinct because of people who supposedly know what they're doing. ill just be sure to take photos.

 

[Perko]

So loosing a pure Diamond in pure Jungle territory is different?

i give up, you win, do whatever you like without precaution. realease as many of your ugliest mongrels into the wild as you like to strengthen our native genetics if you think its the right thing to do. go ahead and release exotic species while you're at it. chop down a couple of trees too. then you'll be able to tell your kids what australias animals and ecosystem was like when you were a kid. as i assume you parents told you, as my parents have told me how many animals they used to see they are now either rare and endangered or extinct because of people who supposedly know what they're doing. ill just be sure to take photos.

 

[Malley]

I'm interested to know how many of the "against hybrid" people making the argument that if hybrids escape from captivity, they will "muddy up natural populations" keep species which don't occur locally to them. Couldn't the escape of their pure species do the same thing if capable of breeding with local populations?

 

[waruikazi]

Nope. No it can't, it wont, will never happen, pure animals have good taste and stick to their own. None of this interracial breeding for our high class locale specific animals.

On a less tongue in cheek note. I had a conversation with Gavin Beford a couple of years ago regarding a brown that i caught out of a shipping yard that i thought was a hitch hiker. The conversation revolved around the topic of if it was a hitch hiker that it would cause damage to local gene pools. I don't remember the research that he quoted to me but his response was that a small number of animals like that wont have an impact on wild populations. He isn't the be all to end all of reptile genetics but he certaintly does know his stuff.

I'm interested to know how many of the "against hybrid" people making the argument that if hybrids escape from captivity, they will "muddy up natural populations" keep species which don't occur locally to them. Couldn't the escape of their pure species do the same thing if capable of breeding with local populations?

 

[Waterrat]

CarigP, there is another question - would the diamond find the jungles sexy enough to have an affair with them? And if so, would one individual spoil the population's genetic make up? I don't have the answers but it's something to think about.

Subspecies is an obscure taxonomic unit. Some herpetologists don't take it seriously at all, on the other hand, Ray Hoser et al. wouldn't live with out them. Just look at the Tiger snakes; once 6 (or so) subspecies, now all one species, no subspecies. There is no doubt that many subspecies (but not all) are in the evolutionary transition state and given time, geographical separation, etc., will / may evolve into full species. So, are we jumping the gun by separating them prematurely?

In this and other threads people often don't distinguish between "subspecies" and "locality morphs", they're not one and the same.

 

[ntvnm]

i rang up the Dse the other day and had a ferm talking to about the licenses being sent by april ,apparently they are cracking down on people and have seen alot of people wingeing on the forums about them..LOL

anyway good luck to everyone and this thread..im over it.

 

[Kurto]

i rang up the Dse the other day and had a ferm talking to about the licenses being sent by april ,apparently they are cracking down on people and have seen alot of people wingeing on the forums about them..LOL

anyway good luck to everyone and this thread..im over it.

Whats the license deadline got to do with this thread?

 

[Colin]

Have all our carpet subspecies had their full genetic makeup mapped by scientists as yet? Would be a shame to assume they are the same even though they all look completely different and come from very different habitats only to find out that deep in their genetics they are actually different. If anyone can present me with a scientific paper explaining that they have all been DNA profiled to be exactly the same I will eat my shirt and finally shut up on this topic.

In regard to my earlier post where I said I've been told that DNA studies of the morelia group uncovered there were only three distinct DNA found in morelia - being imbricata, bredli and the rest..

This research was done at the University of Adelaide/SA Museum through a number of PhD students under the supervision of Professor Steve Donnellen. The friend who told me about this study just rang Professor Donnellen and was told despite the work being completed in 2006 it hasn’t been published. The reason for this is the PhD student got a job straight after his PhD with forensics and hasn’t had the time to publish the work.

But the title of the PhD is “Using DNA markers for wildlife management and protection: a study of the population structure and systematics of the Australian Carpet Pythons”. It was done by Duncan Taylor.

Here is the abstract …

Abstract
We used a range of molecular genetic markers to investigate the population structure of the polytypic and widespread carpet python complex (Morelia spilota) from Australia and New Guinea, in which two species and seven subspecies are recognized currently based on scalation, color pattern and behavioral traits. However, knowledge of the taxonomic and geographic distribution of variation in behavioral and morphological traits is incomplete and whether variation in these traits indicates population divergence or local adaptive responses has not been determined, making the basis for systematic decisions unclear. We examined variation in mtDNA control region sequences, allozyme loci and eight microsatellite loci from snakes sampled from 118 locations throughout the range of the complex and used concordance among the three datasets to analyse species boundaries. We found that the currently recognised species Morelia bredli and sub-species Morelia spilota imbricata can be recognized as distinct lineages within the Morelia spilota complex sufficient to warrant species status as M. bredli and Morelia imbricata respectively. Within the remaining taxon M. spilota, we found high levels of geneflow and low divergence between all other putative sub-species.

the bottom line of the study was that with the exception of imbricata and bredli the whole Morelia spilota group is just a complex of interbreeding populations which are locally adapted to their environments but are not reproductively isolated in the wild.

all this research was carried out and supervised by:
Professor Stephen Donnellan
South Australian Museum,
North Terrace, Adelaide SA 5000, and
School of Earth and Environmental Sciences,
University of Adelaide SA 5005,
Australia.


If you give Professor Stephen Donnellan a call I'm sure he will verify this information is correct..
I hope this is sufficient Cheyne

 

[Waterrat]

Colin, you are a brave man.
This work and other related studies clearly spell out that the variegata does not exist and the validity of other subspecies such as chaynei, etc., is a product of poor science and vivid imagination. This will make the Hoser clan very unhappy and I am sure they will keep on splitting their little hearts out for eternity. LOL
As for the hobby, I guess jungles will be jungles and coastals will be coastals. Just a further divergence of the hobby from herpetology? So be it.

 

[Colin]

Im no scientist or geneticist michael and dont even pretend to understand half the scientific jargon in most of these scientific papers. But thats the reference my friend gave me in regard to there really being only three distinct recognised morelia DNA.

But as you say jungles will always be jungles to me and coastals will always be coastals.. cheers

 

[AUSHERP]

Ausherp - orginal collectors?? every one buys directly from them dont they?...

@ ntvnm, you said before that most of the breeders claim locality specific animals dont know for sure and i said that alot of them do know for sure because they collected the animals, you got off track a bit there....... we werent talking about the buyer we were talking about the seller.....

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

The plot thickens! Thanks for the abstract Colin. Never let real science get in the way of a good hybrid debate. Michael, you are spot on when you say that the gap between herpetology ( science) and herpetoculture ( hobby breeders) are getting bigger. Don't let formal education get in the way of Internet based facts!

 

[Colin]

The plot thickens! Thanks for the abstract Colin. Never let real science get in the way of a good hybrid debate. Michael, you are spot on when you say that the gap between herpetology ( science) and herpetoculture ( hobby breeders) are getting bigger. Don't let formal education get in the way of Internet based facts!

always good to throw some science Vs emotion in the purist hybrid debate

 

[Beano05]

The battle continues!

Pure vs hypo. I was against it originaly but saw some pics of some really nice patterns and colours, and have seen some average colours and patterns on pure. If you like it buy it, if you don't then don't.

Isnt it obvious as to what is cross bred? or are sometimes tiny changes?

 

[Waterrat]

Hey, all you purists, hybridisers and morphomakers, lets live in harmony. There is room for all of us, "respect" is the password.

 

[Colin]

Hey, all you purists, hybridisers and morphomakers, lets live in harmony. There is room for all of us, "respect" is the password.

I second that michael.. lets all try to get along and move forward.

 

[potato matter]

I second that michael.. lets all try to get along and move forward.

I third that!

 

[mark83]

yep. each to their own