INTERGRADES - Your Thoughts

[grimbeny]

A port mac is not simply a regular coastal X a diamond. They r in the overlap they have traits similar to each but r not really just a cross.

 

[Zanejb]

ahh yes the port mac depending on where it area will depend on how much of either coastal or diamond it has but if you bred it with a coastal cross diamond then your only adding to the diamond and coastal gene pool within the port mac so i still beleive it to be an intergrade.

 

[grimbeny]

It might look alot like a port mac and even an experienced herper probably couldnt tell the difference but it couldnt be called a port mac.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Zane
wrote
Hybrid - a cross between 2 different species (eg, a BHP x a coastal)

the above example is hypothetical and not a fact ?
in this instance any offspring from the above example would be hybrids , true .



the simplest definition has been stated many times on this thread
Hybrid = The Copulation Takes Place In Captivity between sub species or species
Intergrade = The Copulation Takes Place In The Wild between naturtally occuring sub species

 

[Zanejb]

i have to disagree and im not going to bother with genetics and what not your only claiming that an intergrade is a natural accurance right? well if i bred a jungle with a coastal in captivity and conrtinued through a few gnerations im actually INTERbreeding the genes and creating an INTERGADE. this coouldnt be a hybrid as a hybrid is a creature that has unlike parents so a snake that is neither like the father nor the mother but looks like something completely different another word for this is a MULE. look up hybrid in the dictionary and youll figure it out.

jungle_freak - my example was not a fact but was an example so im not saying its possable to breed BHP with coastals as the genes are too diffirent and would result in unfertile eggs or unfertile offspring which would be mules.

 

[stencorp69]

The devil is in the fine print my freind DOMESTIC dogs are all the same species. If you put a labrodor over an african wild dog that would make a hybrid. And SXC yes they are all the same species line bred from the one group of animals. That's what 10'000 years of line breeding can do.

That's a great point in this argument, because unless you are breeding between animals that have been sourced (or have heritage) from the same spot in the wild (within say 20KM), you are actually diluting the genetic purity of the animal. There is no point breeding a gosford diamond with a bega diamond and claiming its pure - in the end its a hybrid, the whole argument is pretty much hypocritical.

If you are selectively breeding for traits that you or others will like I think it is good for the hobby. I'd love to see a BHP/WOMA X.

Very few of us are keeping reptiles for conservation purposes given that we aren't allowed to release offspring into the wild, so the genetic purity arguement is a matter of choice.

Sten

 

[Zanejb]

ok here is my theory based on dictonary meanings and some genetics and so on.

Intergrade - an intergrade is anything bred (wild or in captivity) from within the the same genus for example a morelia spilota spilota x morelia spilota cheynei) the animal has features similar to both mum and dad (mum and dad also share fearures) is still FERTILE and thus not a hybrid.

Hybrid - a hybrid is anything bred (wild or in captivity) from two different genuses (for example morelia x Aspidites OR morelia x Notechis) the animals will look different to both mum and dad (mum and dad dont share features) they are refered to as a MULE and are unfertile IF breeding was successful and thus not an intergrade.

is this hard to understand or is this flying over peoples heads?

 

[grimbeny]

For starters the dictionary definition of a hyrbid is the cross from between two different species not genuses. Secondly the dictionary isnt going to be acurate for scientific terms. Thirdly you have just made up your own definitions they r not the ones comonly used in the herp comunity.

 

[Zanejb]

For starters the dictionary definition of a hyrbid is the cross from between two different species not genuses. Secondly the dictionary isnt going to be acurate for scientific terms. Thirdly you have just made up your own definitions they r not the ones comonly used in the herp comunity.

the dictonary usually uses the example of a donkey and horse they are the same species of animal (Perissodactyls) but a different genus and secondly the term for hybrids is the Biological meaning and therfor scientific and my definitions are based on the herp community as if you look in the wiki and look at the 'base" interpritation then i have been following the meanings the whole time and are based on the "commonly" used meanings. and you have to remember this is under debate and therefor the herp communities interpritation is going to vary so dont generalise.

 

[grimbeny]

Somthing cant be the same species and different genus.

 

[Zanejb]

oh my god you have no idea about biology do you? Perissodactyls are hooved animals horses and donkeys belong to this group and the example you get for a hybrid is when you breed a donkey and a horse together. different species but same genus, still cant grasp this concept? also the dictionary meaning that uses this example is the biological meaning, not the general term.

 

[grimbeny]

Im sorry Zanejb in this case ur wrong. species is underneath genus in the tree, you could only be more specific in naming its subspecies. Genus is a heading above species.

 

[Zanejb]

there ive changed it for you as you are right species comes after genus, however when it comes to the other things ive posted you still havent given a good arguement against what ive put up.

 

[grimbeny]

Oh u just got urself mixed up in ur third last post.

 

[Zanejb]

and i thank you for pointing it out.

 

[grimbeny]

I duno what to say becaus ur just saying STUFF. On this website at least most people would regard a coastal crossed with a diamond as a hybrid.

 

[grimbeny]

Integrades have always been regarded as purely naturally ocuring crosses. So if a coastal X diamond isnt a hybrid it also isnt an integrade and we need a new word.

 

[Zanejb]

????? no we dont need a new word as ive already explained, i havent been saying "STUFF" as everything ive stated is relevent. and as far as for most of the people on this forum calling a coastal x diamond a hybrid thats a load of crap. most people avoid an arguement so they plain and simply call it a cross most of the time.

 

[grimbeny]

But rnt u trying to argue its an integrade?

 

[Aslan]

most people avoid an arguement.

That's news to me...

This topic is raised every bloody week and always devolves into an argument with people quoting a variety of different definitions and dribble...

...surprise, surprise it seems to have happened again...