INTERGRADES - Your Thoughts

[buck]

That is definitely not the case, you can go to Gosford and find extremely high yellow Diamonds, dull yellow Diamonds, black and white Diamonds AND almost totally black Diamonds. The same is true of Jungles and coastals, it is virtually impossible to determine locality by appearance.

Exactly what I was going to say but using the Illawarra as an example

 

[Zoltag]

Im not sure how much more it can be explained after Bigguys, Peters and Nightowls posts.

For those people who seem to constantly describe these Pythons as the direct result of Carpet x Diamond pairings, now or 100,000 years ago.
Do you think Noah and his python loaded
Ark dropped a few Carpets off in Queensland, then sailed down the coast to NSW
and off loaded a few Diamonds? Then a few years later these pythons meet up in Northern NSW? :shock:

If you read (and understand) my posts, you will see that I do not think that at all...(Not least because I dont believe in god)...

hmm ... I am not saying Port Mac Carpets are 'intergrades' or hybrids....just their own subspecies. They aren't a mix of both subspecies because in my theory diamonds were not around yet.

How about this....say..... once upon a time, 100,000 years ago there was a python colony around the centre of the east coast of australia (Brisbane). No other pythons existed below this point. Over the course of another few thousand years this species of python slowly bred its way south, changing patterns and colour (evolving into subspecies in order of Coastal, Port Mac, Diamond) as it went to suit the colder climates until it reached the south coast of NSW.

PS. the context of this post is not meant to offend anyone, just trying to use a bit of light humour

Again, you are right in describing how intergrades evolve...

The Port Mac Carpets are defined as intergrades, rather than their own sub-species because they carry the genetic markers from coastals and diamonds and dont have any genetic markers distinct to only their type...

Think about it this way - Coastal carpets have some genetic markers that are not present in Diamonds and vice versa...However Port Macs do not have any markers distinct from both coastals and diamonds (that have been identified to date), instead they have the markers from both subspecies...(That is what makes them a link (intergrade) between coastals and diamonds - I believe if they didnt exist, then coastals and diamonds would be separate species, rather than subspecies)...

 

[Pythoninfinite]

The taxonomy of this vast carpet python group is still very poorly understood, and is probably too big a task for one researcher to take on in one lifetime... We can all theorise till the cows come home, and all our theories may be blown out of the water with new research at any time.

It may be simpler than we think, it may actually be far more complex than any of us know, but it will take many hours and thousands of specimens from all over Australia to ascertain the true standing of all the locality groups of carpets. And the nature and methods involved in taxonomic research are evolving all the time too - new methods may bring about a dramatic change in the way speciation is interpreted.

I do REALLY like the Noah bit though - that puts it in a nutshell beautifully... There NEVER was a gap between coastals & diamonds along this coast - wherever these snakes originally came from, they have inhabited almost the full length of the east coast for countless thousands of years and have simply adapted to the local environment wherever they may be.

Jamie.

 

[Renagade]

my port mac is beautiful, he has a wonderful temperament and was cheap. i have no problem with the " mongrel" snake, he will probably out live his arthritic ridden, hip displacer suffering purebred relatives. anyway no one seems to give a **** that there are pretty much no full blood aborigines left in australia. get some perspective people.

 

[Zanejb]

i think this thread has gone on far enough, people are now confusing area locations with sub species! and we have gone from jungles to coastals to diamonds and so on. so ill make things simple and you can choose to beleive or choose not to.

intergrade - a cross between SUB species (eg, a diamond x a coastal)

Hybrid - a cross between 2 different species (eg, a BHP x a coastal)

ive also come to the conclusion that you can breed an intergade in captivity so long as they are sub species and you COULD also breed a hybrid so long as they are different species (but eggs may be unfurtile or if offspring where born they may be unfurtile). this really isnt hard to understand and it has taken me time to except it but i beleive this to be the closest to the right answer.

 

[grimbeny]

The term hybrid is NOT confined to naturally ocuring crosses, thats just stupid. not to mention a bhp and coastal couldnt breed together.

 

[Australis]

intergrade - a NATURALLY accuring cross between SUB species (eg, a wild diamond x a wild coastal)

Your still missing the point, wild diamonds are NOT breeding with Wild Coastals.

 

[Zanejb]

grimbeny - ok i will add that the last paragraph of what i wrote states that you can bred hybrids and intergrades in captivity and i was using examples i wasnt implying that these where in perticular being bred.

australis - like with grimbeny if you read my post again i clearly have stated 'eg' and therefor implying examples to go with my points i wasnt saying that this is the issue. whether or not i have put "NATURALLY" or not it doesnt matter and ill even re edit my post to make it more to your liking.

 

[Australis]

No point showing a example that isnt true.

 

[grimbeny]

I think that generally integrades are regarded as naturally occuring animals which lie in the overlap of two closely related sub species eg portmacs. Where as hybrids are artificial crosses between two animals of different species or subspecies.

 

[Zanejb]

actually if you do it in captivity then it would be true, am i not correct?

 

[grimbeny]

I dont think that crosses r regarded as integrades

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Hybrid ??????? The Copulation Takes Place In Captivity ,
Intergrade ??????? The Copulation Takes Place In The Wild ,
Very Simple

 

[grimbeny]

agreed

 

[Zanejb]

hmmm youve missed the point

 

[Zanejb]

to me an intergrade is just another word for a cross and a hybrid is basically an abonination so the concept of a diamond cross a coastal not being an intergrade doesnt make sence a hybrid is usually something that shouldnt really exist so if you breed anything under the morelia with sub species to another sub species then its a cross/intergrade. a hybrid on the other hand IF i refer to it as an abinination that shouldnt exist then it would be different snakes species that have bred like a finch crosssed with a canery. but like i posted earlier some will agree with me some wont

 

[grimbeny]

I think thats a rather naieve way of thinking about it. what one person regards as an abomination others would not. I dont particularly think people shood breed coastals and diamonds. But port macs on the other hand r a different thing. Crossing a coastal and diamond does not make a port mac.

 

[Zanejb]

ok lets say a port mac shares the genes of both a diamond and a coastal. well if i bred a diamond crossed with a coastal with a port mac what will i get? will i get a port mac or a intergrade or a hybrid

 

[grimbeny]

a hybrid

 

[Zanejb]

really and why is that?