INTERGRADES - Your Thoughts

[Hetty]

Of course, they are both cheynei so the resulting offspring can't be hybrids, it's not my opinion, you can't have a hybrid within a sub species. There are plenty of species that vary tremendously in length, colour and pattern throughout their range.

hy·brid
1.the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.
I'd call different jungles different varieties. There's no way you'd get me breeding my Cape York 'cheynei' with any other type of 'cheynei'. To me, that would be creating hybrids. There's a post on what hybrids are in the help section.

 

[Retic]

Thanks, I know what hybrids are.

 

[Hetty]

Sorry, that did sound rather rude.

The term hybrid does seem to mean different things to different people, that's what I was trying to say.

 

[Retic]

No worries, my problem with it is how far do you take it ? What if you have a beautiful flouro yellow Tully and a slightly less attractive mate that happens to be striped ? Do you try to produce a bright yellow striped Jungle or not bother because it could be considered a hybrid ?
My point is of course it would be best practise to breed animals from the same locality BUT you can't create a hybrid from breeding 2 animals from within a species or sub species. Like I said just how far do we take it ? Do snakes have to have come from the same side of a hill ? How would we know anyway ? We only have the breeders word for it.

 

[Hetty]

Well, I really think we need more subspecies for Carpets. I personally think a 10ft Atherton is as different from a 5ft black and gold Tully jungle as a Coastal carpet python is.

 

[Retic]

The thing is we can't seperate them at anything but a genetic level, Jungles come in all shapes and sizes from around 3 feet to over 10 and every size in between but that alone doesn't mean they are seperate species or even sub species. If of course they are shown to be genetically different I will willingly start calling them anything that is decided upon. We as individuals can't take it upon ourselves to split species into sub species we feel more comfortable with.

 

[Zanejb]

i agree with you boa, all the jungles whether it be tullys or athertons they are jungles because of the way they display there features, size is generally the last thing you consider when putting an animal into a particular genus. when you check an animal for idetification they check the way the scales meet at the mouth to and scales to eye size and so on, after doing all this then they decide on what the animal is. to make my point make more sense an atherton jungle and a tully are the exact same animal the only difference is the way they have evolved to there surroundings but the animal is still the same and therefor if bred together arent technically a hybrid.

 

[CHONDROS]

all snake have evolved to there surroundings most carpet are the same species so then a cross of a coastal and jungle can not be call a hybird technically

 

[Greebo]

all snake have evolved to there surroundings most carpet are the same species so then a cross of a coastal and jungle can not be call a hybird technically

Nope. Technically a cross between a coastal and a jungle is a hybrid.
See definition of hybrid in the following link.

http://aussiepythons.com/showthread.php?t=44640

 

[Hetty]

Meh, I wasn't just remarking on their size, I was talking about colour as well.

They're very different snakes.

Anyway, it's a problematic subject.

 

[da_donkey]

all snake have evolved to there surroundings most carpet are the same species so then a cross of a coastal and jungle can not be call a hybird technically

I dont think anything could be called a "Hybird":lol:

Donk

 

[Retic]

A Condor, they fly very high.

 

[CHONDROS]

ok then a cross of a wa bhp and a qld bhp as color and size are different they are still a bhp. but so are carpet

 

[Zanejb]

actually the tully and athertons colours are exatly the same, you get your standard forms (black and whitish yellow) and you get your black and golds. the markings from the snakes are also very similar the snakes have more eye veiw similarities than they do differences. the only difference between the 2 snakes is really there size and thats it.

 

[Zanejb]

you have to be carful when dealing with carpets, there differences and similarities are wide spread from colour and size to the way the scales sit and even to the extent of head sizes. its easy to compare area locations like WA and QLD forms but when you think of a sub species your actually seeing small differences other than colour and size.

 

[junglepython2]

to make my point make more sense an atherton jungle and a tully are the exact same animal the only difference is the way they have evolved to there surroundings but the animal is still the same and therefor if bred together arent technically a hybrid.

If there is a difference in how they have evolved how can they possibly still be the same? They may not be a seperate sub-species but they do have there differences and are not really the same or we couldnt distinguish between the two and they wouldn't have two names.

 

[Greebo]

australis: now THAT anyone can understand! once i fully grasped the idea (thanks big guy) i tryed to used the words "morphed over time" (on the last couple pages somewhere) but i got flamed for it! why didnt i think of the noahs ark thing?!?! lol

I guess the flamed comment is aimed at me. I am sorry if you think that I was trying to flame you as that was not my intention. I have seen this topic come up on here so many times that I know the subject matter very well.
However, I stand by what I said about your previous comment as it was ambigious and did not make sense.

 

[Hetty]

actually the tully and athertons colours are exatly the same, you get your standard forms (black and whitish yellow) and you get your black and golds. the markings from the snakes are also very similar the snakes have more eye veiw similarities than they do differences. the only difference between the 2 snakes is really there size and thats it.

Oh, god. You didn't read what I said. I was talking about a specific type of Atherton and comparing it to a 'jungle' of a different region.

 

[Zanejb]

the nothing - did i not make any sense at all! i was comaparing the atherton to another jungle from a different region which was the tully so yes i did read what you said and yes i did reply with a reasonable answer

junglepython2 - what i was inplying with the jungles is that they are basically the same except for size variations and colours this is a "small" population of jungles that have made small changes to there life style but havent evolved into a seprate sub species. they still have all the features of other jungles and there for are the same. instead of saying QLD form or NT form, seeings as all the jungles are in qld we devided them into areas just like we have pilbara BHPs and so on. there all still jungles bu the main difference is the atherton are bigger than the other jungles tully, palmerston etc. generally the markings dont change much between the different areas as some can throw lots of black and some throw more yellow it all depends on what genes have been rebred back into the snakes each season within these certain areas. and also these smakes are all side by side and this means the smaller sizes can breed with the larger ones and depending on which gene is stronger will depend on how large the offspring will turn out.

 

[Australis]

I don't think the Noah story helped your credibility LOL.

Maybe not, but its stupid enough to work :shock: