INTERGRADES - Your Thoughts

[hornet]

i'd just like to confirm, there are natural hybrids, i'm sure some animals have produced natural hybrids and i know for sure that there are many natural intergrades in plants, nothing wrong with natural intergrades, as said before, they are just locality specific carpets, i cant believe this topic keeps coming back up.

 

[Southside Morelia]

LOL . Have just read the whole of this post for the first time. A bit of dejavu hey!!! :lol:

 

[zen]

Always interesting and informative this subject!

I learn something everytime this somewhat controversial topic comes up.
Informative contributions like BigGuys help educate newbies and old farts alike.:lol:

 

[westerner]

Hi,
I have been trying to make some sense out of this thread....can someone please tell me... how does a person know if they have a pure pilbara stimmson compared to say a wheatbelt that has been bred with say a geraldton variety....and does this make the snake less valuable if one was wanting to eventually breed from it themselves....also when purchasing a snake does the seller need to give the buyer proof of what breeding it is....
Thanks for any ideas

A Newby

 

[westerner]

Hi Hornet,

I was led to believe just what you mentioned above about natural hybrids... that there are occasions when say a Pilbara Python will mate with a Geraldton Python .....least I have learnt that they arent fussy...grinz

A Newby

 

[Hollywood_Tybos]

i own many coastal carpet/diramond intergrades and i find them really great handlers and awsome fun- especially 4 a newbie- i rate some of my intergrades very highly and do not appreciate the negative comments. mine range from 3ft to 12ft and not 1 has ever bitten. just thought i would have my say and stick up 4 these little guys even though there are gonna be alot of ppl on here attackin me for voiceing my opinions. thats what seems to happen on here. i think if it is sold as what it is then there is no differance 2 selling say a murry darling- they r a legit sub species. end of story

 

[dragon_tail]

i agree with them being great! the only thing in question here is if they are a coastal that is naturally 'morphing' into a diamond(intergrade), or if they are a product of a diamond and a coastal reproducing?(hybrid)

 

[junglepython2]

Hi,
I have been trying to make some sense out of this thread....can someone please tell me... how does a person know if they have a pure pilbara stimmson compared to say a wheatbelt that has been bred with say a geraldton variety....and does this make the snake less valuable if one was wanting to eventually breed from it themselves....also when purchasing a snake does the seller need to give the buyer proof of what breeding it is....
Thanks for any ideas

A Newby

Thats the whole problem often it is impossible to tell and you need to go on the word of the breeder. People also tend to allocate a location to an animal simply by looks, ie "mine looks like that so it must be this" The animal then gets branded as a locale specific animal which often isn't the case.
And for the second part of your question pure bred or local specific animals are usually more expensive.

 

[Greebo]

i agree with them being great! the only thing in question here is if they are a coastal that is naturally 'morphing' into a diamond(intergrade), or if they are a product of a diamond and a coastal reproducing?(hybrid)

This comment makes no sense at all. A coastal can not morph into a diamond.


Hollywood,
The only people that use the word "intergrade" in a negative fashion are those that do not truly understand what the term means.

 

[Aslan]

This comment makes no sense at all. A coastal can not morph into a diamond.

Greebo - I disagree entirely the Ninja Turtles morphed with the help of green slime when I was a kid...please get your facts straight before posting...

 

[-Peter]

Greebo - I disagree entirely the Ninja Turtles morphed with the help of green slime when I was a kid...please get your facts straight before posting...

problem is Aslan that 90% of the people in this thread probably think thats true:?
I did see some slime around the Port Macquarie area though now you mention it.

 

[Aslan]

What really blows me away is that Intergrade/Hybrid threads are brought up every week - and even if that wasn't the case we are now on the 9th page of this one....how do these absurd posts still manage to make their way in...? *sigh*

 

[sxc_celly]

I started this thread for a bit of info, and its just kept going lol. Its pretty interesting and informative to see peoples thoughts and opinions. Thanks everyone!

 

[Zoltag]

This comment makes no sense at all. A coastal can not morph into a diamond.

But isnt that essentially what has happened?...(though it is more likely they both "morphed" into coastals and diamonds from a common ancestor, it is also possible that diamonds evolved from coastals or vice-versa)...

Hence there being intergrades between coastal carpet pythons and diamond pythons...

What I dont get is how people can say hybrids are bad but intergrades are good, as they can be genetically identical animals...(which really makes the whole argument moot, because if intergrades exist in the wild, then how can you possibly make the distinction between intergrades and hybrids in captivity, as again, they are the same animal (the only way you could would be by keeping perfect breeding records and providing papers for every animal born - Which is probably not such a bad idea, for purebred animals of a distinct sub-species, though it would be a waste of time, effort and money for animals of mixed genetics))...

(For those that are confused, the difference between an intergrade and a hybrid is defined by when they got the mix of genes that they have, not by what those genes are...Basically, if you trace their family tree back to before the two distinct sub-species diverged and didnt find any animals that were one sub-species or the other, they are intergrades and if you did find such animals in their family history, they are hybrids (whether they are wild-bred or not)...Who knows, all of the wild "intergrades" might actually be hybrids, its just that humans didnt get around to classifying them before the animals of mixed genetics appeared on the scene)...

 

[Zoltag]

What really blows me away is that Intergrade/Hybrid threads are brought up every week - and even if that wasn't the case we are now on the 9th page of this one....how do these absurd posts still manage to make their way in...? *sigh*

Maybe because its difficult to find information about hybrids / intergrades and when newbies try to find out about it, a lot of misinformation seems to come from a lot of directions, so its simply easier to ask...*shrug*

Maybe a group of people with the right knowledge can put together a FAQ page, to detail exactly what hybrids and intergrades are and pose the informative, correct information from all angles?...

That way people would be less likely to have to start a new thread that might irritate you...

 

[bigguy]

Zoltag, you are wrong and if you read back over my posts you will see why. Even though intergrades are the same species as all eastern carpets and share the same basic DNA, there is still detectable differences in the DNA between each subspecies. Intergrades are different from Caostal Carpets and Diamonds and are their own subspecies with their own DNA markers.

A manmade hybrid between Diamonds and Carpets do not have the same DNA as a natural occurring intergrade, but instead just share the DNA markers between Diamonds and Carpets, totally different.

So your comment that they are the same is false. This is easily shown by DNA evidence, but also hybrids look completely different to natual intergrades and a experienced keeper can normally tell the difference faily easily if seen live.

 

[-Peter]

jeeeezus h christ. Most of you people seem totally unable to grasp the whole intergrade concept
Only mummy and daddy intergrades can have intergrade babies.
Other Morelia species if cross bred cannot have intergrades. intergrades when referring to carpet pythons; thats the Morelia genus and in this case the morelia spilota spps; are those locality specific types found in certain areas. Not hobbiest bred animals from mixed ssp. That's a cross breed. A breed being a variant in a species achieved through selective coupling.
Intergrades are not the cross breeding in the wild of a coastal carpet and a diamond or an MD and a diamond. Not today, not tomorrow, not yesterday and not 1000 years ago. its not how it works.
What happened was that all the pythons of old migrated down from Asia(except for the woma and blackhead) and then became regionally isolate. Now this probably happened on more than one occasion. When a genetic group becomes isolated you get certain genetic traits becoming dominant. Just like people did thousands of years ago.
So you end up with all the same species with characteristics that are dominant in certain locality groups.
Now if someone from Denmark has a child with someone from Nigeria, you don't get an Italian baby do you.

 

[nightowl]

:lol: just keeps going on and on and on :lol:

What two Species/Subspecies crossed to make a Diamond? None
What two Species/Subspecies crossed to make a Coastal? None
What two Species/Subspecies crossed to make a Murray Darling? None
What two Species/Subspecies crossed to make a Port Mac (Intergrade)? NONE

They are ALL Locale specific carpet pythons! Just stop calling them Intergrades and there will be less confusion in the future.

 

[-Peter]

:lol: They are ALL Locale specific carpet pythons! Just stop calling them Intergrades and there will be less confusion in the future.

That would solve it but unfortunately we need to have a name gazetted to replace intergrade. NSW NPWS need to replace the name on their register as well.
Someone needs to write and article for a reputableherp magazine.

 

[Forensick]

so are intergrades capable of producing viable offspring? and hybrids not?

i see nothing wrong with ingrade/hybrids as long as the offspring are viable.

viable being capable of producing offspring themselves.