INTERGRADES - Your Thoughts

[Zoltag]

Zoltag, you are wrong and if you read back over my posts you will see why. Even though intergrades are the same species as all eastern carpets and share the same basic DNA, there is still detectable differences in the DNA between each subspecies. Intergrades are different from Caostal Carpets and Diamonds and are their own subspecies with their own DNA markers.

OK, now I really dont understand...(and yes, I have read back over your posts - including the one that explains what intergrades are)...

My understanding of sub-species is that they are the same species, but with localised genetic differences, which essentially gives the animal a distinctive colour pattern, or minor physiological differences, etc...

Intergrades are animals that share some (or all) of the genetic markers distinct to each of the sub-species that they are intergrading and occur naturally at points where the sub-species meet (well, close enough to meeting, as the intergrades are the ones occuppying the space between the two sub-species)...Obviously, there are more genetic markers of one sub-species as you get closer to the range of that sub-species and vice versa...

Hybrids are animals that are produced when you breed one pure sub-species with another pure sub-species and hence share some (or all) of the genetic markers distinct to each sub-species and may or may not occur naturally, depending on whether the pure sub-species occur naturally in the same place (we'll ignore the fact that such meeting points would be undetectable as hybridisation and would instead be classified as intergrading, as you would see a "fuzzing" of the edges of the meeting point, due to cross breeding)...

So basically what it comes down to is when the genetic markers were mixed - If it occurred before either of the sub-species became distinct sub-species, then it would be an intergrade and if it occurred after the sub-species became distinct sub-species, then it would be a hybrid...

If either of these meanings are wrong, please tell me what I'm mis-understanding...

If the meanings are correct, then based on these meanings, it should be possible for a hybrid to be genetically identical to a naturally occurring intergrade, surely?...

 

[Zanejb]

hmm actually i think you may be right there, youve explained it to a point that it makes a little more sense. the intergrades would be the shade of grey between an area of 2 different sub species. the only arguement against your claim is that if you have intergrades breed with intergrades it makes the gene stronger and therfor they should be a seperate sub species correct? where as a hybrid is a captivity bred animal that is firts generation (of the 2 crossed genes) and therefor not really a new snake unless the genes was bred again with another hybrid in which after a about 20 generations or so wouldnt you start to see a different breed of man made snake? correct me if im wrong

 

[Zoltag]

Hi, Zanejb

I dont think it would be a new sub-species, as there is a mixing of the markers and no apparent new marker to identify the intergrade as a separate sub-species...(and because of the mixing, unless one particular set of markers were isolated and unable to mix with the rest of the markers present, there would be continual mixing and hence it would be normal variation within a species, rather than a separate, distinct species (or sub-species, of course)...

I understand intergrades is used to describe these animals, as they are sort of like stepping stones between the two sub-species...So if you have pop A and pop B, the intergrades closer to pop A would have more of the pop A markers and animals closer to pop B would have more of the pop B markers (which makes perfect sense, when you think about it - More animals from pop A would be breeding with intergrades close to pop A than pop B, so pop A markers would be more common and vice versa)...This is of course assuming that both the "pure" animals and the intergrades occupy the same territory - If there is a barrier preventing physical contact, then the intergrades are probably on their way to becoming a new sub-species as they are physically isolated from the other sub-species...

Does that make sense?...

I think that what you have described for a hybrid snake would be exactly how man would make a new sub-species (or breed, or type, or whatever you want to call it) and it is usually a breeding plan that is used to encourage the traits people want their animals to show...(such as line breeding, cross breeding and in-breeding, which are all viable and useful methods of selecting traits and have been used for centuries with other types of animals)...The only downside to it is that captive bred animals that have been manipulated into showing certain traits would not necessarily be able to survive in the wild, as humans breed for traits that may be detrimental to the animal being able to hide, hunt, etc...

 

[Retic]

I think what we need is to see the EXACT genetic differences between Diamonds, Coastals and Port Mac Carpets (intergrades). There must be somewhere on the net this information can be viewed ?

 

[CHONDROS]

buy crossing a white diamond x yellow diamond or a tanami woma x uluro woma that is a hybrid to me as they are from different localitys the same as a jungle x coastal

 

[nightowl]

This is all assuming coastals and diamonds existed before 'intergrades'?

What if, over thousands of years, the evolution of snakes slowly changed as they moved from the northern areas (QLD) to south? As these Subspecies got further south they slowly changed colours and patterns to suit their new climate, eventually becoming their own subspecies. This would mean 'intergrades' were around before diamonds and didn't actually 'hybridise' with anything.

Obviously I am no scientist but this is just another way of looking at it.

 

[Zoltag]

What if, over thousands of years, the evolution of snakes slowly changed as they moved from the northern areas (QLD) to south? As these Subspecies got further south they slowly changed colours and patterns to suit their new climate, eventually becoming their own subspecies. This would mean 'intergrades' were around before diamonds and didn't actually 'hybridise' with anything.

Obviously I am no scientist but this is just another way of looking at it.

That is exactly how intergrades are differentiated from hybrids, nightowl...

In other respects, they are essentially the same as hybrids - a mix of the genetic markers from both subspecies...

The difficulty (in my mind, anyways) is how do you tell if the intergrade is truly an intergrade, or really just a colony of hybrids?...

 

[gman78]

Can you cros a BHP with a Woma?
Just wondering for general knowledge???
I'm not some mad professor.

 

[hornet]

yes you can

 

[-Peter]

That is exactly how intergrades are differentiated from hybrids, nightowl...

In other respects, they are essentially the same as hybrids - a mix of the genetic markers from both subspecies...

The difficulty (in my mind, anyways) is how do you tell if the intergrade is truly an intergrade, or really just a colony of hybrids?...

I think you have missed the point entirely.

 

[Zoltag]

I think you have missed the point entirely.

Like I stated earlier, I am absolutely confused about what you guys mean by intergrades and hybrids and why one is good, but the other bad...

I have found scientific definitions for intergrades and hybrids, but when I posted them, I was told that I am wrong...

Help me get the point?...

 

[Australis]

Im not sure how much more it can be explained after Bigguys, Peters and Nightowls posts.

For those people who seem to constantly describe these Pythons as the direct result of Carpet x Diamond pairings, now or 100,000 years ago.
Do you think Noah and his python loaded
Ark dropped a few Carpets off in Queensland, then sailed down the coast to NSW
and off loaded a few Diamonds? Then a few years later these pythons meet up in Northern NSW? :shock:

 

[Retic]

I'm sorry but under no circumstances can different localities of the same species be referred to as hybrids. You must remember it is only man who has given these snakes different names based on their locality.

buy crossing a white diamond x yellow diamond or a tanami woma x uluro woma that is a hybrid to me as they are from different localitys the same as a jungle x coastal

 

[Retic]

I don't think the Noah story helped your credibility LOL.

Do you think Noah and his python loaded
Ark dropped a few Carpets off in Queensland, then sailed down the coast to NSW
and off loaded a few Diamonds? Then a few years later these pythons meet up in Northern NSW? :shock:

 

[dragon_tail]

australis: now THAT anyone can understand! once i fully grasped the idea (thanks big guy) i tryed to used the words "morphed over time" (on the last couple pages somewhere) but i got flamed for it! why didnt i think of the noahs ark thing?!?! lol

 

[nightowl]

That is exactly how intergrades are differentiated from hybrids, nightowl...

In other respects, they are essentially the same as hybrids - a mix of the genetic markers from both subspecies...

The difficulty (in my mind, anyways) is how do you tell if the intergrade is truly an intergrade, or really just a colony of hybrids?...

hmm ... I am not saying Port Mac Carpets are 'intergrades' or hybrids....just their own subspecies. They aren't a mix of both subspecies because in my theory diamonds were not around yet.

How about this....say..... once upon a time, 100,000 years ago there was a python colony around the centre of the east coast of australia (Brisbane). No other pythons existed below this point. Over the course of another few thousand years this species of python slowly bred its way south, changing patterns and colour (evolving into subspecies in order of Coastal, Port Mac, Diamond) as it went to suit the colder climates until it reached the south coast of NSW.

PS. the context of this post is not meant to offend anyone, just trying to use a bit of light humour

 

[Hetty]

I'm sorry but under no circumstances can different localities of the same species be referred to as hybrids. You must remember it is only man who has given these snakes different names based on their locality.

So, in your opinion, a 10ft Atherton crossed with one of those small 5ft Tully jungles isn't a hybrid because they're both classified as 'cheynei'?

 

[CHONDROS]

I'm sorry but under no circumstances can different localities of the same species be referred to as hybrids. You must remember it is only man who has given these snakes different names based on their locality.

yes but most people to not like cross breeds because they are not pure and crossing of localities make a snake that will show both the colors of both localities so is is no longer a pure (white diamond) but a cross a localities.

That is all that people are doing crossing localities of python (junglexcoastal)is just a cross of localities.

all localities of reptiles have colors from that area and when you cross to localities they will no longer breed to true to one localitie but both is that not a hybiid

 

[Retic]

Of course, they are both cheynei so the resulting offspring can't be hybrids, it's not my opinion, you can't have a hybrid within a sub species. There are plenty of species that vary tremendously in length, colour and pattern throughout their range.

So, in your opinion, a 10ft Atherton crossed with one of those small 5ft Tully jungles isn't a hybrid because they're both classified as 'cheynei'?

 

[Retic]

That is definitely not the case, you can go to Gosford and find extremely high yellow Diamonds, dull yellow Diamonds, black and white Diamonds AND almost totally black Diamonds. The same is true of Jungles and coastals, it is virtually impossible to determine locality by appearance.

all localities of reptiles have colors from that area and when you cross to localities they will no longer breed to true to one localitie but both is that not a hybiid