Morelia spilota Complex/ Intergrades

[peterjohnson64]

Sorry Dicco, forgot one. As imbricata is now a recognised species is it Morelia Imbricata or still Morelia Spilota Imbricata? And someone was going to post a full set of photos. Perhaps GetCoiled has them all.

 

[Dicco]

It'll be Morelia imbricata, it's become distinct from the other due to isolation.

 

[Hickson]

Taylor, Rawlings, Donnellan and Goodman (2003): Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons (Reptilia: Morelia spilota)
Cheers
Stefano

Stefano,

Can you tell me where I can find a copy of that paper? I've been looking but no-one seems to know in which journal it is published. I even tried for several weeks to contact Steve Donellan but he never answered the phone.

Intergrade - zoology - to be transformed from one form to another through a series of stages or forms that involve partial transitions

McBredli - please quote the source.



Hix

 

[junglemad]

can someone post a pic of a sydney carpet please? the ones i have seen have been a darkish two-toned brown but that was years ago. i only see spilota spilota around here lately

 

[MrBredli]

Hix, source is the dictionary function in Microsoft Outlook

 

[GetCoiled]

I have only the abstract on that work, I suppose Toxinologist got it as he posted on this forum as soon as it was talked to a Congress.
I reckon a lot of people would be happy to know more about it.
Cheers
Stefano

 

[Hickson]

Thanks Stefano.

McBredli: I didn't even know Outlook had a dictionary function. :shock:

Junglemad: I think you'll find the official consensus is that Sydney only has Diamond Pythons. However, Diamond hatchlings look a lot like normal carpets. Anything small that looks like a little Diamond Python is usually a Broadheaded Snake.



Hix

 

[junglemad]

that's what i thought hix...sydney carpet is a new one on me

 

[MrBredli]

Sure does, just type in the word, then right click on it and select "Look Up" (i think).

 

[peterescue]

that's what i thought hix...sydney carpet is a new one on me

we have picked up numerpous mcdowelli in Sydney over the years. Usually scattered individuals and near human habitation. These are always viewed as anomolies and escaped or dumped pets.

 

[peterjohnson64]

Jungle, from reading recently I think that "Sydney Carpet" is the new namer for "Diamond Python" as they are all about to be Morelia Spilota.

 

[Dicco]

Sorry for the confusion, I used the name Sydney Carpet for the Diamond Carpets you get around Sydney so people see them all as different Carpets, not just as Diamonds and Carpets, as they are all just different Carpet Python forms.

 

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Sydney Carpet for the Diamond Carpets

Lol - Dont ya hate it when people use the incorrect term for a snake - it happens a bit with intergrades too!
Only having a dig Dicco - I agree with you on the subject but couldnt pass on that one. lol
Cheers
Ad

 

[flavirufus]

Taylor, Rawlings, Donnellan and Goodman (2003): Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons (Reptilia: Morelia spilota)

This paper was to be published in the Journal Molecular Ecolgy, but I don't think its made it into print yet. I have a draft version of the full paper, but would need permission to distribute it. I think Duncan Taylor's just finished his PhD thesis on the topic, so there should be more info available soon.

Matt
http://www.users.on.net/~jbonnett/

 

[zen]

WOW :!: How quickly things are changing in the taxonomic organization of the Morelia spilota complex.

All of these changes to the Australian pythons in general and specifically the "Carpet Pythons" in the last few years are hard to keep up with. :?

I'm sure learning alot from you guys in this thread. Thanks everyone
It seems I'm out of date in this area.

So the revised Morelia spilota complex from what I've picked up in this thread should read something more like this:-

Two new seperate species:

The Centralian Python - Morelia bredli
The South-Western Python - Morelia imbricata


With the rest of the "Carpet Pythons" becoming one singular species Morelia spilota.
This species will then be divided into several distinct forms or geographical types, albiet with blurry intergrade edges. :shock:

These forms of Morelia spilota would be much like the recognised forms of say...
the Blotched Blue-tongue - i.e Highland & Lowland.

So the Morelia spilota complex will have half a dozen or so geographical forms:-

If the various geographical forms are going to be made into one species and phenotype (or colour & pattern) is valid, then in order to avoid a Carpet Soup like what is happening in the U.S.A, the various forms must be identified & preserved :!:

:idea: Let's go through them with typical representative pics of each form.
Help me out here guys with pics of locality true, preferably wild specimens.

 

[zen]

I'll start the ball rolling with some Diamond Python pics.

1. The Diamond Python ( I think this name will stick, as it was the first "Carpet Python" to be described and is not as misleading as the term "Sydney Carpet", as their range stretches from extreme NE Victoria to approximately Taree (Manning River).
It's also a great name 8)

By the way, as previously stated there are no other Morelia spilota forms in the Sydney region other than Diamond Pythons (apart from escapees).


This Diamond Python is from the Blue Mountains near Sydney.

 

[GetCoiled]

Yes!, this doesn't mean in fact we can't keep referring to different forms by their regional colloquial names (jungles, diamonds, brissies, coastals or whatever ...). So, if it would be phylogenetically true, we could think that every kind of Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds (and so on) you met there is “a locality form” of only one species understandable along a uninterrupted continuum which links the different localities each other. According to me this view is NOT so different from my “purist” angle, let me explain what I mean. Taxonomically speaking is fairly impossible to class adequately ALL the naturally and locally occurring spilota variations; so what difference does it make if we have a regional colloquial names instead of a latin one? Starting from the point of view that we’ll never be able to translate completely ALL the locality carpet forms into taxonomically recognized taxa is it so important to side that topic?
Cheers
Stefano

 

[flavirufus]

We all need to keep in mind that the concept of species is a construction of human minds, not neccessarily a neatly defined biological reality. In fact, there are a number of different concepts of what constitutes a species and not everyone agrees on a single concept. It becomes even more blurry when dealing with the concept of sub-species, which are very poorly defined.

The recent taxonomic work will not change the different populations of carpets we recognise , but may change the way we view the relationships between them. As it stands, all but bredli are recognised as the same species anyway and this new work simply suggests that imbricata be elevated to full species status. I don't really see a problem in continuing to use the various sub-specific names as a means of distinguishing between populations, given that the names serve a purpose (though not being strongly defined in a biological sense).

Dicco, I'd be interested in the source of your information that indicates that Chondropython will be revived and carinata will be classed as Chondropython as well. The DNA analysis I refer to above indicates that GTPs are pretty much just green carpets (molecularly speaking )

Matt
http://www.users.on.net/~jbonnett/

 

[NCHERPS]

Dicco, I'd be interested in the source of your information that indicates that Chondropython will be revived and carinata will be classed as Chondropython as well. The DNA analysis I refer to above indicates that GTPs are pretty much just green carpets (molecularly speaking )

Matt
http://www.users.on.net/~jbonnett/

Matt,

John Weigel told me the same thing last year, from memory I believe it was work that Kluge was undertaking.

Neil

 

[bigguy]

Guys, DNA may have shown that the Eastern Carpets(spilota) are in fact the same species, but there is still a variation of the DNA between each reconised colour form. This is what a sub species is, a variation of a true species. If each group was found to have different DNA they would be seperate species, like Centralians and South Westerns, however they dont. They are only what we deem sub species. For this reason the old scientific names for each group would still be valid.