Crack down on subspecies crosses Queensland

[Retic]

Im not saying it is there but the purist love to bash on jags and claim they are a cork screwing which isn't the case... And how many jags have you kept that are over 10 years old?

I'm not a huge Jag fan and actually only have 3 and I do agree the neuro issue is certainly exaggerated, many show absolutely no signs at all, some show slight signs and a minority show extreme signs.

 

[Rlpreston]

I have seen it with my own eyes a few people who had limited appreciation of a particular species until they spent large tracks of time exploring the habitat. One obvious example is a close mate of mine who viewed Pygmy pythons as just a real ugly sister of a children’s python and not really worthy of been considered on our very limited W.A collecting list additions over other species. The same person now appreciates and keeps this species and I know how that appreciation grew upon him just as I had predicted it would.

There is a difference between not being interested in a particular species (or thinking they are ugly) and wanting to mash everything up into a mayhem of crosses/bad genes, wouldn't you agree?

I also take exception as I have literally NEVER been out 'bush herping' and I greatly appreciate natives in their natural/pure forms (and keep nothing muddied myself).

I do, however, have no interest personally in keeping Anteresia at this point in time. Just not my cup of tea!

 

[andynic07]

There is a difference between not being interested in a particular species (or thinking they are ugly) and wanting to mash everything up into a mayhem of crosses/bad genes, wouldn't you agree?

I also take exception as I have literally NEVER been out 'bush herping' and I greatly appreciate natives in their natural/pure forms (and keep nothing muddied myself).

I do, however, have no interest personally in keeping Anteresia at this point in time. Just not my cup of tea!

I find that any snake that I see in person has wow factor , I never had an interest in adders because they mainly sat there doing nothing but once I saw an adder in person on my ven course I loved them and will get some. I also get a lot more excited seeing a snake in the wild than I do in enclosures, I don't really know why but it is great and your adrenaline gets going.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I am still waiting to here who Boa lol

Not necessarily, I know numerous people who breed crosses that have done more than their fair share of bush herping. Bit too much of a generalisation really.

- - - Updated - - -

Still waiting on this one to lol

What is the things that you suggest are worse illegal activities out of interest?

 

[Retic]

Poaching, passing off wild caught as captive bred for a start, use your imagination Dave there are loads of things worse than cross breeding some pet snakes

 

[chimerapro]

It appears that the authorities in Queensland are starting to enforce the rules around hybrids as I have heard of someone getting fined and snakes being confiscated. Has anyone else heard of this happening?

They are not starting at all and it is no way a "crack down" yes from rumour only I have heard of a private keeper being caught with unlicenced animals, record books poorly kept and a few lizard hybrids (most likely from poor communal housing, not through intentional hybridising) fines may be issued. Once again all only via the hobbies gossip girls as rumour, no public media release has been made by DEHP in any way indicating that this has actually happened. As for me I got off scott free no fine no conviction (No guts No Glory) I'd do it again too for the record The Dept is under resourced and has very poor knowledge of the goings on within our industry and even poorer knowledge when it comes to species identification.

And between Morelia spilota and Morelia kinghorni/amethistina as well Scott (same male in both cases). The progeny had small scatted head scales like a carpet.

Scott & Hoplophile in your taxonomic wisdom and years of industry knowledge and experience you must surely know the male carpet that mated with the scrub and the water females (housed communally in a zoo exhibit, with no manipulation to induce hybridisation whatsoever except for an artificial habitat) was in fact a Coastal carpet python from the SEQld region Morelia spilota mcdowelli? So in reference to the animals I produced as not being a first recorded instance of hybridisation in their respective right as my animals were Morelia spilota varigata (female Darwin locality) & Liasis fuscus (male Qld locality) prove to me that this exact hybrid has been produced before and I'll gladly eat my words!
For those that don't know I spend plenty of time in the field, I love locality specific animals (proud owner of wildcaught Katherine NT locality A.childreni amongst other things) have owned jags (like their looks, don't like the defect) don't own jags anymore and most likely won't (may do though), I love all kinds of hybrids and also would love to see some conservation value put back into some of the hobbies livestock.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

What did you cross to create a hybrid that got you charged if you don't mind me asking ?
Sorry ignore that question, I just read your post properly.

 

[andynic07]

They are not starting at all and it is no way a "crack down" yes from rumour only I have heard of a private keeper being caught with unlicenced animals, record books poorly kept and a few lizard hybrids (most likely from poor communal housing, not through intentional hybridising) fines may be issued. Once again all only via the hobbies gossip girls as rumour, no public media release has been made by DEHP in any way indicating that this has actually happened. As for me I got off scott free no fine no conviction (No guts No Glory) I'd do it again too for the record The Dept is under resourced and has very poor knowledge of the goings on within our industry and even poorer knowledge when it comes to species identification.


Scott & Hoplophile in your taxonomic wisdom and years of industry knowledge and experience you must surely know the male carpet that mated with the scrub and the water females (housed communally in a zoo exhibit, with no manipulation to induce hybridisation whatsoever except for an artificial habitat) was in fact a Coastal carpet python from the SEQld region Morelia spilota mcdowelli? So in reference to the animals I produced as not being a first recorded instance of hybridisation in their respective right as my animals were Morelia spilota varigata (female Darwin locality) & Liasis fuscus (male Qld locality) prove to me that this exact hybrid has been produced before and I'll gladly eat my words!
For those that don't know I spend plenty of time in the field, I love locality specific animals (proud owner of wildcaught Katherine NT locality A.childreni amongst other things) have owned jags (like their looks, don't like the defect) don't own jags anymore and most likely won't (may do though), I love all kinds of hybrids and also would love to see some conservation value put back into some of the hobbies livestock.

I agree that it was stories that I heard but I am not sure that the stories that you heard and the stories that I heard are the same stories. I am also aware that there is a lot of chit chat in the hobby and that is why I posted more in a question as to what have people heard instead on of this is what is happening. The title was deliberately posted in a way to get peoples attention so I could get a good range of stories/experiences and generate some discussion. Thanks for posting on your experience with cross species breeding as you did not have to.

 

[eipper]

Ron,

i am am well aware of the scrub x.... It had a scale abnormality from memory to.

Nathan,

I would need to check what sort of carpet produced the hybrids and the exact circumstances. I am fairly sure as to how and what was involved- but I don't think your quite right either. It's not the most pressing affair for me either ATM .

All,

throwing stones in glass houses can cause more than slight issues. I cannot see an issue for transparency as to animal origin. At the same time I cannot see the reason that a "wildlife" department should have a reason to restrict, regulate or govern over animals that are clearly not wildlife.... They can never be released to the wild, they pose a potential threat to a wild population's genetic integrity and provide extra cost in both time and expense to enforce compliance. If reptiles that can be proved are of captive bred origin why should there be a need to regulate their keeping. The said enforcement personal rather than chasing down clerical errors could concentrate on real crime of poaching and smuggling. Less paperwork for both sides and easier.

 

[longqi]

Im not saying it is there but the purist love to bash on jags and claim they are a cork screwing which isn't the case... And how many jags have you kept that are over 10 years old?

I have never owned any jags except for 2 that were given to me about 5 yrs ago in a futile attempt to fix neuro
But I have seen the original jags from Jan Engels and handled hundreds of others in Aus US Europe and Asia

I am the first to admit they are gorgeous
If they didnt have problems I would have some

But with so many top quality neuro free morphs being developed I dont think I will ever think seriously about owning any in future
Until and unless we find a way to know what is going on inside the head of a snake with neuro I could not bring myself to encourage any jag breeder to breed more by owing one

 

[cement]

At the same time I cannot see the reason that a "wildlife" department should have a reason to restrict, regulate or govern over animals that are clearly not wildlife.... They can never be released to the wild, they pose a potential threat to a wild population's genetic integrity and provide extra cost in both time and expense to enforce compliance. If reptiles that can be proved are of captive bred origin why should there be a need to regulate their keeping. The said enforcement personal rather than chasing down clerical errors could concentrate on real crime of poaching and smuggling. Less paperwork for both sides and easier.

I know Scott, it is the age old question here eh?
Basically the reason as I see it as to why they regulate etcetc, is just simply because they get income from doing it, no more no less, it is their bread and butter. The reason as to not spending more time chasing the bad guys..... no income, and resource sucking.
If they got the right the right bloke in at the top though, they could (in theory) make craploads more money from fining the prosecuted bad guys.........but then by doing that, they probably realise that sooner or later even that source of income would dry up if they did it right.
So, its all to hard and they fall back on what they have in place!
And to the politicians that know and care squat about wildlife and natural heritage, it is easy to show that they are doing something of value, though we know different.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Just maybe the DEC think that hybrids and other rubbish are indeed some degree of threat to wild populations if they should escape.

 

[ThatGuy]

I thought it would be less likely that a hybrid could cause major damage to an ecosystem should it escape. Wouldn't it fail to survive and perish due to being ill equipped for the environment around it before it could breed or do any damage in the wild? I admit I am relatively inexperienced, but if you took a diamond python and released it into the desert would it not simply perish as evolution gave it the tools to deal only with the climes and habitat of the South Eastern parts of Australia? Similarly wouldn't a hybrid, having potentially conflicting instincts from the combination of breeds in its parent specimens fail in the wild also? I guess there are instances where hybrids may occur in the wild but this would be called evolution or adaptation in a science context if the product of the mating pair were to survive and thrive in the wild. As far as the rumors it could be that people who are avidly against creating hybrids deliberately are creating and using these as scare tactics to discourage people who do it "experimentally". Just my opinion.

 

[cement]

I think the one thing that does get a little overlooked is the fact that yes they are 'pet' snakes with no conservation value, but these pets snakes are well equipped to survive in this country once they escape. They don't know they are just pets. Crossed sub species in my humble opinion have more reason to be able to survive. Possibly the same with hybrids.
I have pulled obviously crossed subs out of the wild, but wether they were hatched in the wild or escaped is completely unknown, one thing for sure though is that they were suffering no ill effects at the time of capture.
On the note regarding out of area pythons doing ok or not, in areas that they are not originally from goes, it is my experience that yes, they can do well, and I have seen many cases to prove it.

One good example is a proserpine carpet, captive bred here on the Central Coast, found here on the Central Coast of NSW, re-united with its owner, identified as the same snake by photos, 6 years after its escaped date. I also pulled an 8ft prossie out of a roof here on the Central Coast in the middle of mating with a large female diamond.

I also know of a breeder breeding captive diamonds quite easily in outdoor cages up on the Atherton tablelands.

 

[Bluetongue1]

I find it interesting that some individuals feel that producing hybrids isn’t “truly illegal”. If it is contrary to the gazetted regulations covering the hobby in a given state or territory, then it is illegal. The fact that a percentage of people are happy to take advantage of the various departments’ severe limitations in policing the hobby does not make it legal. I really like them and its exciting doing it to see if you can make it work and then see what amazing new snakes you can produce, does not make it legal. The fact you can get away with it, does not make it legal.

The problem is those who stick within the rules and are 100% legal, are the ones who stand to lose out. As has been mentioned, hybrid origin animals are off-loaded as species specific so they can be sold in the system. If people kept all their hybrid animals and did not sell them into the system one might be able to turn a blind eye. If pigs could fly. IF...

We have the argument legalise, that will allow registration of what it is. So what how do you register the offspring of a hybrid and a species? And that is only the first generation. There dodgy backyard breeders already passing of one species as another to unsuspecting buyers. They would have an absolute field day with hybrids. Not to mention the black market.

It is a hallmark of humanity that the more people are given, the more they tend to want. I’d warrant that if hybrids are made legal, yet another illegal aspect of keeping will arise to take its place.

Blue

 

[andynic07]

I find it interesting that some individuals feel that producing hybrids isn’t “truly illegal”. If it is contrary to the gazetted regulations covering the hobby in a given state or territory, then it is illegal. The fact that a percentage of people are happy to take advantage of the various departments’ severe limitations in policing the hobby does not make it legal. I really like them and its exciting doing it to see if you can make it work and then see what amazing new snakes you can produce, does not make it legal. The fact you can get away with it, does not make it legal.

The problem is those who stick within the rules and are 100% legal, are the ones who stand to lose out. As has been mentioned, hybrid origin animals are off-loaded as species specific so they can be sold in the system. If people kept all their hybrid animals and did not sell them into the system one might be able to turn a blind eye. If pigs could fly. IF...

We have the argument legalise, that will allow registration of what it is. So what how do you register the offspring of a hybrid and a species? And that is only the first generation. There dodgy backyard breeders already passing of one species as another to unsuspecting buyers. They would have an absolute field day with hybrids. Not to mention the black market.

It is a hallmark of humanity that the more people are given, the more they tend to want. I’d warrant that if hybrids are made legal, yet another illegal aspect of keeping will arise to take its place.

Blue

There is some that think it is "truly legal" and then others that think there is no way to prove subspecies crosses. I think the rule should be removed and these crosses named on paperwork so it does not ever effect the pure animal. I also think that you are forgetting about the word mutation from many legislations which in my eyes could refer to hypo , albino or any other mutation that is openly bred. I do not have a problem with these mutations either but think the legislation needs to be changed to reflect this. I am sure it was first created to stop all but what is considered wild type breeding but which may have been good in theory but as we know there are many different wild colour types from different regions and many mutations that can occur in the wild.

 

[Bluetongue1]

I deliberately did not mention mutations, as I see them as very different issues. Artificial selection may achieve a similar looking snake to one produced through hybridisation, but the genetic profiles of the two snakes would be vastly different.

With artificial selection you are choosing individuals on the basis of just a few of genes that control colour and/or pattern. In order of magnitude, the fraction of genes involved would be less than 10[SUP]-3[/SUP]. Whether it be a species or subspecies and whether it has undergone selective breeding, been line bred or resulted from inbreeding, you would still be dealing with the same species or subspecies. That is a big difference to the mongrel animals produced by hybridising.

As I stated, I believe legalising hybrid breeding will make the situation worse and not better. That is based on the reasons I gave. In addition, if overseas experience is anything to go by, with the difficulty in sourcing purebred species of carpets and such, we are better off maintaining the current system that prohibits hybridising.

One rationale that frequently proffered is that it is happening anyway, so it would better to legalise as this would get it out in the open where it can be regulated. This argument appears sound and compelling. The same argument can be applied to many regulated activities. Just about everyone on the road speeds when they can so why not lift the speed limits by 5 or 10 km/hr. Sounds reasonable enough. The same argument has been with respect to legalising recreational drugs. They are out there, being used by huge numbers every day. If they were legalised at least the authorities could control what substances and strengths are actually in them. Again, it sounds reasonable.

There are two legal recreational drugs, tobacco and alcohol, which together, either directly or indirectly, kill more Australians than anything else. Speed is one of the major contributing factors to our road toll of around 1400 deaths per year – and that is with seat belts, air bags and crumple zones. What may appear reasonable on the surface is not necessarily reasonable when more closely scrutinised.

I think we might just have to agree to disagree on that one Andy.

Blue

 

[Senator358]

Far out blue. You say exactly what I want to say but so much more eloquently. lol
The only comment that I will make is that I completely agree!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[andynic07]

[MENTION=20726]Bluetongue1[/MENTION] I really think that there is enough hard core pure line enthusiasts around in Australia that even if hybridisation was legalised then pure lines would be maintained. I do not think an analogy between something that can harm a person and something as harmless as snake breeding is fair. I also am not confusing or comparing mutations and hybrids but more pointing out that both are illegal to do. I do see your point nut as you say agree to disagree.

 

[TrueBlue]

Breeding hypos and albinos of pure blood species or sub-species is not illegal in QLD Andy. I have spoken to the dept about this. As long as it is a naturally occurring mutation they have no problems with it.
Hypos are a very common mutation found in quite a number of wild reptiles, and relatively common in some species ie, coastals, bredli, etc.