What should be done with sibs?

[andynic07]

If we believe Jan Engels they just turned up in a batch of eggs
So they are not a hypo or a rp as we know it
They have a gene that causes a colour morph but also has an incurable hereditary problem

I never used to believe it but am now pretty sure that even the original jags had neuro
Two American buyers of the original jag line confirmed this
They are both adamant that neuro was there before the IJ was added to the mix

Is it the defective gene that causes the colour morph or is that only responsible for the neuro issues? Could this be attributed to excessive line breeding?

 

[ShaunMorelia]

Having kept a jag for close to 4 years now, mine has shown no neurological issue. That isn't to say that it will eventually show it.
I understood what the genetic defect is, meant, how it is displayed and the different levels of effect when I purchased it.

If the genetic neurological defect was in fact due to being excessively line bred, then it would have went away years ago.
My reasoning behind this statement is, because the mutation is a co-dominant trait, most people are breeding them to an unrelated wildtype as you will get the same amount of offspring displaying the Jag trait as you would if you bred 2 jags together.

In Queensland, the laws are quite grey when it comes to cross breeding. They state that the cross breeding between species is illegal (eg Morelia spilota x Morelia viridis or Morelia spilota x Liasis olivaceus).
But seeing as though Coastals (Morelia spilota mcdowelli) and Jungles (Morelia spilota cheynei) are the same species, they can technically be cross bred legally (according to the QLD rules as they are sub-species).
For NSW, Office of Environment and Heritage (OEH) has brought in new species codes for the cross bred sub-species including one for Morelia spilota unknown.
Hopefully soon, a lot of other states will follow this step and implement the crossed sub-species then there will be far less for those who keep and breed pure sub-species (including myself) to worry about.

As with the siblings to cross bred sub-species, whether it be from a morph or the whole clutch from the combination of 2 wildtype sub-species (which has been done for much longer than since jags were here), they should be represented as such and we all know that once they are passed on, it's up to the honesty of the new owner to label them as such if they breed or on-sell them.

I think there would be less problems when it comes to labelling the animals for what they are if the authorities took just this one (and only one) leaf out of OEH's book and created new species codes for the cross bred sub-species. This would remove so much uncertainty when purchasing and selling these animals. Also if those who have strong views on the crossing of sub-species didn't give those who do happen to sell their cross species such a hard time (you can read back and see that there is quite a lot of down talking and belittling towards those who have cross bred sub-species), they would be much less inclined to label say a Jungle x Diamond as a pure Jungle because it looks more like a Jungle, in fear of the potential abuse they could receive.

Those are my thoughts.
You're Welcome.

Shaun.

 

[thomasssss]

Ive only quoted what I feel is the part relevant to my response

It is impossible for any hybrid breeder to legally paper any hybrid sibling as a hybrid
Regardless of the honesty of the original seller the legal paper state clearly that the animal is xxxxxx
If and when that animal changes hands x number of times the original seller good intentions and words have long gone

So the breeder advertising and selling them as hybrid siblings has little bearing on the future history of that snake
That is the problem

once again we have false information spread as gospel , ive seen you say this numerous times in this thread so far longqi , did you once take the time out to see if any of the morelia crosses can be listed on paper work ? cause i can tell you right now that they can be listed as a jungle cross coastal etc etc on NSW paper work

perhaps double checking that the info spread time and time again is in fact correct

 

[RedFox]

Thomasss NSW does not equal the rest of the country. If a NSW hybrid is on paperwork as a hybrid it is then sold interstate (not exactly uncommon) and this other state doesn't have the option of hybrids the python would be put on as pure. This is where the confusion could happen.

I'm Vic

 

[thomasssss]

Thomasss NSW does not equal the rest of the country. If a NSW hybrid is on paperwork as a hybrid it is then sold interstate (not exactly uncommon) and this other state doesn't have the option of hybrids the python would be put on as pure. This is where the confusion could happen.

I'm Vic

i do realise that nsw doesnt make up 100% of australia , and i do realise that the confusion can happen , but to continually say that the licensing department doesnt allow them to be labelled as what they are is incorrect , and it has been used as a point of argument more than once throughout this thread which is why i think that it should be noted that it is infact an incorrect statement

 

[champagne]

Post should of read around 5% actually have major issues and most dont seem to be affected in anyway. As far as i am aware there is still not any documented papers that state that all jags have or possess a neuro disorder so for anyone to say otherwise it is just comes down to another person trying to bash on breeders/keepers of them.

More then happy to continue this through PM's so we can keep the thread on topic about "hybrid sibs" and not become another jag bashing thread.


Rick

not bashing on jags but all do have neuro defect but some have such little neuro effect that you can hardly notice it but it is still there.... sometimes it take the snake to get really excited ie. breeding, combating, feeding ect before it shows and it may not show ever time but it is still there.

- - - Updated - - -

All jags show neuro symptoms sooner or later. The older they get the worse it seems to get. This is fact, always has been always will be.

You are basing you opinion on irresponsible breeding and yes if those breeders were trying to breed animals with major issues then they should not breed. The fact is yes a jag that shows serious neuro problems tend to get worse with age.... if you cant cull hatchlings with server problems jags or not you should not breed.

 

[cement]

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- - - Updated - - You are basing you opinion on irresponsible breeding and yes if those breeders were trying to breed animals with major issues then they should not breed. The fact is yes a jag that shows serious neuro problems tend to get worse with age.... if you cant cull hatchlings with server problems jags or not you should not breed.

Please enlighten me on what is "irresponsible breeding"?
I remember reading through an American carpet morph site years ago about their jags, and there were posts from people who had been trying to breed out/isolate the jag neuro issue from the pattern for over a decade and they were adamant it would not be done. SO when people, with 10 yrs plus, working on a particular issue fail to find a solution, its pretty obvious. The yanks don't go all secretive, and clandestine like we do out here.....they don't have to. The issue is discussed quite openly and as leaders in breeding the ******* they are the ones I listen to.
Do you think that we can breed responsibly, and breed jags differently to the yanks? The jag breeders will tell you yes. Wonder why??

 

[Amazing Amazon]

Is there proof or is it just a presumption that breeding Jags that show less neuro conditions will produce offspring with less neuro symptoms?

 

[TrueBlue]

100% presumption.
Ive spoken to people overseas about this, its been tried time and time again with NO succses
Breeders use this tall tale to sell their animals.

 

[longqi]

i do realise that nsw doesnt make up 100% of australia , and i do realise that the confusion can happen , but to continually say that the licensing department doesnt allow them to be labelled as what they are is incorrect , and it has been used as a point of argument more than once throughout this thread which is why i think that it should be noted that it is infact an incorrect statement

Noted and apologised for
I actually went on line to download as many transfer sheets as I could and must have missed reading this on NSW

Now we just need the rest to follow suit

 

[thomasssss]

Noted and apologised for
I actually went on line to download as many transfer sheets as I could and must have missed reading this on NSW

Now we just need the rest to follow suit

no worries there listed in the species code list thingy , i found them when looking for the numbered codes to put into my log book

would be great if other followed suit but i wont be holding my breath , i totally understand the points you guys are all making , sibs are a very controversial topic which is why i have sat on the side lines for most of it

it has also given me alot to think about , i never planned on breeding my jag ( yes im a terrible person , i bought a jag better shoot me now before i pollute your gene pools ) in the first place but this has helped to further that mind set
i like the look of them but i dont feel like i need or want to be apart of producing them

 

[longqi]

Nobody on Earth can deny that good jags are top looking snakes
So I cannot blame anyone for owning one

But I applaud your decision not to breed them

 

[thomasssss]

Nobody on Earth can deny that good jags are top looking snakes
So I cannot blame anyone for owning one

But I applaud your decision not to breed them

cheers , some may say that buy owning a jag that i am only supporting them , that may be the case in a way but its not like im standing their egging them on , i simply saw something i liked ad got it , it doesnt mean that i agree with any other dodgy doings that might go on behind closed doors or the way they arrived , it simply means i liked what i saw

i can honestly say that if i couldn't own a jag i wouldnt give a rats , i dont care about the many exotics i cant have and the same would apply to jags but there here and here to stay like it or not , we can only hope that people are honest with what they sell and that there are always people keeping pure lines alive , the last one i think is pretty much covered

 

[pythons unleashed]

None, never will.
But have info from OZ, and overseas keepers that have been keeping them for years and all confirm this 100%.
Alot of them have stopped keeping them because of the long term neuro issues.

Well I've been keeping them as long as all those breeders and I'm still going strong, in fact I purchase some off those breeders parents and am still using them.

 

[TrueBlue]

Yes but some people just look past the neuro issuse. Some people never learn as they say.
Oh so youve been keeping them for a couple of years or so since the first original jag popped out.? lol.

I dont care what you keep, just telling it like it is, that jags have lost their appeal to most and are lossing more and more appeal to more people everyday. And rightly so.

 

[zulu]

Nobody on Earth can deny that good jags are top looking snakes
So I cannot blame anyone for owning one

But I applaud your decision not to breed them

Top of the line black and yellow jungles are better looking than jags IMO cant see the attraction in the jags except the jag thats been bred with a black yellow jungle but might as well have the black and yellow jungle without the pollution to the genes .
Remember the first time i ever saw a really good black and yellow jungle many years ago, they are friggin amazing you just cant improve on something that good.

 

[longqi]

Top of the line black and yellow jungles are better looking than jags IMO cant see the attraction in the jags except the jag thats been bred with a black yellow jungle but might as well have the black and yellow jungle without the pollution to the genes .
Remember the first time i ever saw a really good black and yellow jungle many years ago, they are friggin amazing you just cant improve on something that good.

Try gold ringed mangrove snake??
I agree the jungles are delicious and wish I could have kept mine
But they really only come in black/white and black/yellow
Jags come in many patterns and colours

IF jags did not have neuro I think they would have dominated the market by now
Neuro free jags were many designers dream
But it seems that after 13yrs of trying neuro is there and cannot be bred out

As more and more neuro free "morphs" etc come on line jags will keep vanishing into the woodwork
But how many of those new "morphs" will have come from Jag siblings??
Some jag siblings are stunning animals and with correct labeling should fetch good money

Its the confusion during sales and legality of hybrid siblings that leads to threads like this

Question
Does NSW ban the breeding of morelia subspecies?

If they do ban it why have have they included unknown/mixed on their lists?
Or is supposed to be only for diamond/coastal intergrades?

 

[thomasssss]

Question
Does NSW ban the breeding of morelia subspecies?

If they do ban it why have have they included unknown/mixed on their lists?
Or is supposed to be only for diamond/coastal intergrades?

dont know about the legality of breeding some of them but its not for intergrades , they actually have a code for diamond cross bredli among many many others , intergrades are labelled as such

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/nature/CurrentSpeciesList.pdf

its a fair way down , about 22-23 down , you will see a whole heap of codes for different morelia crosses , some labelled as hybrids some just crosses , interesting how many there are really

 

[cement]

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[yellowbeard]

Question
Does NSW ban the breeding of morelia subspecies?

I think you meant to ask "Does NSW ban the breeding of Morelia subspecies hybrids or Morelia hybrids?"

I have not found anything in the licencing requirements that say you cant, so you can (if anyone has found different post up the proof).

If I remember correctly when the licencing system was introduce in NSW the only species that were listed as hybrids on the species list where the naturally occurring intergrades and there weren't many of them.

Now as of the 2013 list there are 13, mostly Morelia and a few dragons and skinks. So I would say that the licencing system in NSW is keeping up (or trying to) with what is actually being bred and understand that hybrids are here now and will be a part of the reptile industry for some time to come now.

As for "What should be done with sibs?" This is very simple, other states need to come out of the dark ages and review there licencing systems to reflect what is being bred and make it mandatory to list a hybrid as such, the final buck stops at the licencing authority within your state, so if you want someone to blame try your state government.

Can people from states other than NSW please do a cut and paste of your licencing requirements where it says it is actually illegal to create hybrids?

I ask this as there is always a lot bollocks, hearsay and crap posted of this forum with out proof (names, papers articles etc.)!!