What should be done with sibs?

[andynic07]

I think you meant to ask "Does NSW ban the breeding of Morelia subspecies hybrids or Morelia hybrids?"

I have not found anything in the licencing requirements that say you cant, so you can (if anyone has found different post up the proof).

If I remember correctly when the licencing system was introduce in NSW the only species that were listed as hybrids on the species list where the naturally occurring intergrades and there weren't many of them.

Now as of the 2013 list there are 13, mostly Morelia and a few dragons and skinks. So I would say that the licencing system in NSW is keeping up (or trying to) with what is actually being bred and understand that hybrids are here now and will be a part of the reptile industry for some time to come now.

As for "What should be done with sibs?" This is very simple, other states need to come out of the dark ages and review there licencing systems to reflect what is being bred and make it mandatory to list a hybrid as such, the final buck stops at the licencing authority within your state, so if you want someone to blame try your state government.

Can people from states other than NSW please do a cut and paste of your licencing requirements where it says it is actually illegal to create hybrids?

I ask this as there is always a lot bollocks, hearsay and crap posted of this forum with out proof (names, papers articles etc.)!!

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/illegal-breed-hybrids-qld-201556/

 

[turtle]

Well I've been keeping them as long as all those breeders and I'm still going strong, in fact I purchase some off those breeders parents and am still using them.

So you have been keeping them as long as all those breeders. Does that mean youve had them when the first low grade Jags got smuggled in the country or did you smuggle them in way before that?

Dan

 

[cement]

I think you meant to ask "Does NSW ban the breeding of Morelia subspecies hybrids or Morelia hybrids?"

I have not found anything in the licencing requirements that say you cant, so you can (if anyone has found different post up the proof).

I ask this as there is always a lot bollocks, hearsay and crap posted of this forum with out proof (names, papers articles etc.)!!

When I was organising a ballot with the NPWS for some snakes I asked them. The answer you are after is no, they have not made it illegal. But the general consensus amongst them is they don't like it.
What some people need to understand is that the guys and girls that work for NPWS don't make the rules, they are the messenger. They are entitled to their opinions like everyone else.
They have had to try and deal with a massive growth in the hobby and there isn't really an us against them mentality. In fact I would think that by making it easier for the people to list their animals as they really are shows the opposite.

 

[yellowbeard]

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/illegal-breed-hybrids-qld-201556/

Thank you for providing a fact below is the cut and paste:

Can I breed protected animals?
Yes, if you are the holder of an appropriate licence you are entitled to breed those species listed under Schedule 3 of the
Nature Conservation (Wildlife) Regulation 2006.
However, it is illegal to knowingly breed a mutation or hybrid of a protected animal, although there are some specific exemptions that apply to the holder of a commercial wildlife licence or recreational wildlife licence for live protected birds.

 

[andynic07]

Thank you for providing a fact below is the cut and paste:

Can I breed protected animals?
Yes, if you are the holder of an appropriate licence you are entitled to breed those species listed under Schedule 3 of the
Nature Conservation (Wildlife) Regulation 2006.
However, it is illegal to knowingly breed a mutation or hybrid of a protected animal, although there are some specific exemptions that apply to the holder of a commercial wildlife licence or recreational wildlife licence for live protected birds.

The thing that I took out of this statement is that mutations are also illegal, I have been told by members on here that they have directly asked questions about colour mutations like hypomelanistic and albinoism and they are fine so even with the rule in black and white there is still grey areas like what mutations are not allowed?

 

[cement]

I can only speak about my dealings with NSW NPWS.
That bit is probably a different state, yes?

 

[yellowbeard]

The thing that I took out of this statement is that mutations are also illegal, I have been told by members on here that they have directly asked questions about colour mutations like hypomelanistic and albinoism and they are fine so even with the rule in black and white there is still grey areas like what mutations are not allowed?

For QLD it states "it is illegal to knowingly breed a mutation or hybrid of a protected animal" so legally the QLD authorities could confiscate them, how ever if what you have been told by other members true and the QLD authorities are fine with it, then QLD needs to review it's licencing of reptiles.

So far the breeding of hybrids:

Not allowed in QLD
Allowed in NSW

What about the other states?
Can people from states other than NSW please do a cut and paste of your licencing requirements where it says it is actually illegal to create hybrids?

I ask this as there is always a lot bollocks, hearsay and crap posted of this forum with out proof (names, papers articles etc.)!!

 

[Wing_Nut]

WA

9. No species or subspecies kept under the provisions of this license is to be allowed to inter- breed under any circumstances.

 

[KaotikJezta]

Victoria:

46 Inter-breeding of wildlife
(1) A person must not, without the prior written
approval of the Secretary—
(a) permit different taxa of wildlife to interbreed
unless those taxa of wildlife are known
to inter-breed in the wild;
(b) permit taxa of wildlife to inter-breed with
another taxa of animal that is not wildlife;
Example
A dingo may not be bred with a dog (Canis lupis
familiaris) or dingo-dog hybrid.
(c) sell or dispose of cross-breeds of wildlife
unless those cross-breeds are known to occur
in the wild.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.

 

[Rogue5861]

Sa-
http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/fi...-9e6100c2815b/FPU_KeepingProtectedAnimals.pdf

"Cross breeding-
It is an offence to cross breed any protected animal with any other species or sub-species of animal."


Rick

 

[phatty]

i cant seem to find the darwin one but just got off the phone to parks they said you can breed any thing with anything as long as it breeds
by the looks of it their is a lot of illegal activities going on down south

 

[Stuart]

i cant seem to find the darwin one but just got off the phone to parks they said you can breed any thing with anything as long as it breeds
by the looks of it their is a lot of illegal activities going on down south

I have the actual ruling in writing somewhere. I'll dig it out for you when I'm home Chris

 

[yellowbeard]

So it would seem that most other states need to come out of the dark ages and review there licencing systems to reflect what is being bred and make it mandatory to list a hybrid as such.

 

[Rogue5861]

So it would seem that most other states need to come out of the dark ages and review there licencing systems to reflect what is being bred and make it mandatory to list a hybrid as such.

Or just keep a ban on them an euthanase any found. Why much we accept crossbred species even when there licencing conditions forbid them to? Anyone caught with them should have a fine given to them and if caught a second time they lose their right to keeping australian natives for x amount of years.

If the fix is to put them on the species lists i honestly think that would be just bending over for these people that have broken the condition of their permits, this i do no feel is an acceptable option if we wish to keep them as natural as possible.


Rick

 

[saximus]

Or just keep a ban on them an euthanase any found. Why much we accept crossbred species even when there licencing conditions forbid them to? Anyone caught with them should have a fine given to them and if caught a second time they lose their right to keeping australian natives for x amount of years.

If the fix is to put them on the species lists i honestly think that would be just bending over for these people that have broken the condition of their permits, this i do no feel is an acceptable option if we wish to keep them as natural as possible.


Rick

Except sub-species crosses aren't illegal from my understanding. So mixed Morelia spilota ssp are legal but aren't being recorded correctly because they simply can't. I would imagine that's what people like Yellowbeard are getting at

 

[chimerapro]

Except sub-species crosses aren't illegal from my understanding. So mixed Morelia spilota ssp are legal but aren't being recorded correctly because they simply can't. I would imagine that's what people like Yellowbeard are getting at

The big question is were do we/dept draw the line?? My personal opinion is if you ban and make illegal cross genus and species hybrids then subspecies hybrids should be banned too as they are as much if not more of an ecological risk than a gtpXscrupxchildrens. A bredli is an ecological risk in any state that is outside of its natural range. After thorough discussion with dept heads here in Qld they won't give a distinction between any hybrid be it subspecies cross or genus cross. Seems very ignorant IMO same as many of these comments in the thread. Saximus I commend you on your rational thinking whether your pro hybrid or not I helps to think with common sense.

 

[Stevo2]

Except sub-species crosses aren't illegal from my understanding. So mixed Morelia spilota ssp are legal but aren't being recorded correctly because they simply can't. I would imagine that's what people like Yellowbeard are getting at

Would not a mixed Morelia spilota ssp be classed as a mutation, which is also illegal in QLD?

 

[saximus]

Would not a mixed Morelia spilota ssp be classed as a mutation, which is also illegal in QLD?

Possibly but albino is also a mutation and that's legal there. From what people have said, Qld are pretty haphazard with how they choose to apply that definition

 

[chimerapro]

Would not a mixed Morelia spilota ssp be classed as a mutation, which is also illegal in QLD?

No it's not its a hybrid! Mutation is completely different to hybrids!

 

[Wild~Touch]

It is "the intent to knowingly breed a mutation" which is illegal...some people take that as a loophole.... intent is the word