Crack down on subspecies crosses Queensland

[stary boy]

Agree completely. It will just bring more dishonesty into the hobby and make it extremely difficult to buy truley pure snakes (which of course are the most beautiful, pure australian reptils )

exactly even when the south Australian parks and wildlife went after the bredli jag clutch, they admitted they had nothing to prove it was a cross in a court of law so they purely throw their weight around and the breeder crumbled at the threats... I would of been good if they did something at the start to stop the jag crosses but too little to late I'm afraid. All it will do now is just make all the breeders list everything as pure, which will wreck the hobby for other keepers that only want to keep pure species or want nothing to do with the whole jag or zebra craze and the problem ''sibs'' that come with it.

 

[Rogue5861]

exactly even when the south Australian parks and wildlife went after the bredli jag clutch, they admitted they had nothing to prove it was a cross in a court of law so they purely throw their weight around and the breeder crumbled at the threats... I would of been good if they did something at the start to stop the jag crosses but too little to late I'm afraid. All it will do now is just make all the breeders list everything as pure, which will wreck the hobby for other keepers that only want to keep pure species or want nothing to do with the whole jag or zebra craze and the problem ''sibs'' that come with it.

Its not just jags (some jags are almost pure coastal) they are going after, they are also looking at 50/50 and 25/75 morelias of crossed blood. This would also included bredli to diamond crosses which seem to be popping up.

It would be nice if they actually did start stomping in doors and removing these animals, after all they werent heavily policed before but it is just getting out of hand. If they do started removing animals im sure they will euthanize these animals, its not something i want to do but if its an illegal it will be destroyed.


Rick

 

[cement]

gee, looks like the jag and crossing scene might actually be starting to do the harm to the hobby that I remember hearing about years ago when the original crap fight began.

What came first? The chicken or the egg?
The cross or the NPWS?

 

[longqi]

gee, looks like the jag and crossing scene might actually be starting to do the harm to the hobby that I remember hearing about years ago when the original crap fight began.

What came first? The chicken or the egg?
The cross or the NPWS?

Very interesting to read some of the old threads here
Wonder how many have changed their minds a bit now??

 

[Retic]

Ah, you know Ash, life goes on... and on... and on... ! Although there was a bit of good news last week - Neil Simpson's appeal against his heaviest ever fines & costs awarded in NSW was dismissed by the judge, so he has to fork out the initial nearly $40k plus I presume the costs of his appeal, which would be very substantial. But as we all know, it's easy come, easy go for him.

Nice vipers you have there - does anyone keep the English adders over there Ash? I understand they're a bit challenging to keep long-term?

J

I am surprised they didn't lock him up this time to be honest. He will have to come up some new scam to pay the bills now.

I love my Vipers, the start of a large collection I think Funnily enough I just got back from Adder hunting, saw 9 of various sizes and sexes. CB youngsters seem to do OK
and wild caught are not too bad if you can convince them to feed. They are one of my favourite species.
Here's one from this morning.

 

[champagne]

Its not just jags (some jags are almost pure coastal) they are going after, they are also looking at 50/50 and 25/75 morelias of crossed blood. This would also included bredli to diamond crosses which seem to be popping up.

It would be nice if they actually did start stomping in doors and removing these animals, after all they werent heavily policed before but it is just getting out of hand. If they do started removing animals im sure they will euthanize these animals, its not something i want to do but if its an illegal it will be destroyed.


Rick

They have admitted that the have no way of proving in a court of law any cross bred Sub species and I would challenge them to prove any Morelia species crosses... They are all just pet snakes with no conservation value but unfortunately for people who enjoy keeping pure stock it will continue to be harder to find these animals.

 

[yellowbeard]

It appears that the authorities in Queensland are starting to enforce the rules around hybrids as I have heard of someone getting fined and snakes being confiscated. Has anyone else heard of this happening?

If there was a crack down they are going to be pretty busy in QLD, hundreds of breeders producing thousands of hybrids!

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looks like all the cross bred morphs just became ''pure''. All this is going to do is make everyone lie about what they are breeding... I would ask them to prove it in a court of law it was a cross before handing anything over.

Agreed I hope this is not the case, the NSW system allows for the proper recording of hybrids

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This thread has some interesting view points:

What should be done with sibs?

 

[champagne]

If there was a crack down they are going to be pretty busy in QLD, hundreds of breeders producing thousands of hybrids!

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Agreed I hope this is not the case, the NSW system allows for the proper recording of hybrids

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This thread has some interesting view points:

What should be done with sibs?

I think the solution isn't to ban the crosses but to improve the licensing system (if we have to have one) so that every animal is able to be put on the books for what they are. It's not hard but just shows how out dated and out of touch the licensing system really is...

 

[Ramy]

The licencing system isn't designed for people who want to keep chihuahuas. The licencing system is designed to keep track of wild animals in captivity, and to disincentivise catching wild animals illegally. The kind of work that goes into kennel clubs is very different to what the environmental agencies were aiming to do in giving us permission to keep native animals. Its not out of touch nearly as much as it's them trying to do as much as they can with as little resources as they can.

Maybe if the reptile keeping community wants to keep hybrids/crosses/morphs, they should be the ones to approach the department of whatever and come up with a solution?

 

[champagne]

The licencing system isn't designed for people who want to keep chihuahuas. The licencing system is designed to keep track of wild animals in captivity, and to disincentivise catching wild animals illegally. The kind of work that goes into kennel clubs is very different to what the environmental agencies were aiming to do in giving us permission to keep native animals. Its not out of touch nearly as much as it's them trying to do as much as they can with as little resources as they can.

Maybe if the reptile keeping community wants to keep hybrids/crosses/morphs, they should be the ones to approach the department of whatever and come up with a solution?

That is a very head in the sand solution to the problem. It would be very easy for parks and wildlife to add sub species crosses to the list or even "carpet python unknown". You are right tho The licencing system isn't designed for people who want to keep chihuahuas and that's the problem. Why would people who breed crosses, morphs and hybrids approach parks and wildlife with a solution? What they do isn't effecting them, it will only effect people who like to keep pure reptiles.

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The hobby is changing whether we or parks and wildlife like it or not. They are happy to take the increases license fees, so the should be looking after everyone's interest in the hobby.

 

[Dragon_77]

About time the Wildlife Authorities started to crackdown on those who cross-breed Reptiles.
I myself remember when a guy way back in 1997 cross-breed a Centralian & Coastal Carpet Python's, and the Wildlife Authorities new about it at the time and did nothing to stop him from selling them into the pet trade.

l have always been against keeping cross-breed-morphs-hybrids, I myself would much prefer to keep pure un-related Reptile's only each and everyone to their own.

I have never ever kept any albino Darwin, Jags, Carpet Python's, and have no intention on getting any of these sub-species now or in the future.

You can still get hold of pure Reptiles if you know where to look or contact, l can get hold of pure un-related Reptile's if l want to and have the contacts that l know of like myself who only keep and breed pure locale Reptile's.

All l keep at the moment are 1 pair of wild caught on permit Olive Python's, and l love them both they are so tame and placid to keep and handle.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Perhaps it’s just my imagination, but to me it seems to be that those who have spent the most time exploring the bush herping are generally the people who usually become the purists. Not hard to figure out why I think.

 

[Retic]

Perhaps it’s just my imagination, but to me it seems to be that those who have spent the most time exploring the bush herping are generally the people who usually become the purists. Not hard to figure out why I think.

Not necessarily, I know numerous people who breed crosses that have done more than their fair share of bush herping. Bit too much of a generalisation really.

 

[yellowbeard]

Now as of the 2013 list in NSW there are 13 hybrids, mostly Morelia, a few dragons and skinks. So I would say that the licencing system in NSW is keeping up (or trying to) with what is actually being bred and understand that hybrids are here now and will be a part of the reptile industry for some time to come now.

This is very simple, other states need to come out of the dark ages and review their licencing systems to reflect what is being bred and make it mandatory to list a hybrid as such, the final buck stops at the licencing authority within your state, so if you want someone to blame try your state government.

BTW I have not heard anything at all about a crack down on hybrid or mutation breeding in QLD, maybe the person that was fined and animals confiscated was because they did something else and is not willing to tell the truth?

 

[wokka]

If breeders feel it is necessary to record the family tree of an animal then that is the job of a breed society. If you bother to do it,then it should be done properly and preferably efficiently so that counts the government out. I dont know what the purpose of licencing is, but it cant be to determine the purity of an animal since no animals are individually identified within the licencing system. All Breed Societies I can think of are privately owned and operated and are often just a marketing organisation, which doesn't fit in with the government regulator's mandate, and which is generally anti commercialising of reptiles.

 

[RoryBreaker]

The vibe I hear is that a lot of keepers are getting out of carpets, it's just too hard to prove that what you produce isn't tainted by any of the morph by products ( unless you say that you caught the parents out of the "big paddock" yourself).
Pretty sad IMO.

 

[TrueBlue]

There has always been lies and deceit when it comes to jags in this country, right from the very start. Looks like the lies and deceit will just increase to another level. Tells a lot about the sort of people,( well many of them anyway), that keep these vermin in our hobby.
Pure all the way for me, I have never had anything to do with jags or any cross-bred mongrels and i never will.

I cant see why anyone would bother when pure animals like this can be produced with out much trouble.

 

[Dragon_77]

The vibe I hear is that a lot of keepers are getting out of carpets, it's just too hard to prove that what you produce isn't tainted by any of the morph by products ( unless you say that you caught the parents out of the "big paddock" yourself).
Pretty sad IMO.

Like you say that the vibe you hear is that a lot of keepers are getting out of keeping Carpet Python's, l myself couldn't agree more with what you have said in your post.

This is the reason l wont be keeping anymore Carpet-Black-Headed-Woma Python's, because without proof of where they come from naturally from the wild, and that they have not been cross-breed with other sub-species from different locations far afield, how do you know that you are getting 100% pure un-related you don't.

Unless the person can provide a take from the wild permit to show where and when they were collected from IMO.

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There has always been lies and deceit when it comes to jags in this country, right from the very start. Looks like the lies and deceit will just increase to another level. Tells a lot about the sort of people that keep these vermin in our hobby.
Pure all the way for me, I have never had anything to do with jags or any cross-bred mongrels and i never will.

I cant see why anyone would bother when pure animals like this can be produced with out much trouble.

TrueBlue, like you say in your post Pure all the way, l to am only interested in keeping Pure un-related Python's myself, and have never kept any jags or cross-breed Python's of any species and l to never ever will in my life has Herpetologist or Reptile keeper.

Its good to see there are more keepers on my side against keeping jags and cross-breed Python's.

 

[TrueBlue]

Yes the times are a changing. The jag, cross-bred mongrel era is comming to an end it looks like.
It seems that people are moving away from jags by the droves as they have been here long enough now so that alot of people are seeing first hand the long term medical issues with these vermin.

 

[Red-Ink]

Genetically all carpets are indistinguishable...
The variation in them is vast... even in the classified sub-species.
The only way the authorities can "police" this is: Bredli X whatever for sale cheap, het whatever you like come and get me please Mr Authority in the ad.

They are pets of no conservational value and I don't understand why this law is even coming about?
If the authority were serious about "welfare" it's pretty simple grow some hemipenes and actually just target the snakes that break dance when stressed... at least even visually it's easy to tell which ones they are.