NSW code of practice about to be released

[sd1981]

I dont agree with people keeping hundreds of reptiles in the snake racking system, but I think a little common sense needs to be used here. I've seen some indoor enclosures that wouldn't pass under these new regs, but they'd slaughter plenty of Zoo displays (not just aesthetically, I'm talking square meterage, thermostats, heating, lighting, humidifiers,the works). For many people, the reptiles are like their babies and are treated like their own children. I'm happy that I only have 1 lace monitor, live in QLD and own my own home so am able to set up a forever home the way I believe these majestic creatures deserve. I think if people are breeding reptiles for sale, there needs to be certain requirements to ensure that they're being housed properly, not like puppy farms and chicken hatcheries etc....

 

[girdheinz]

Herp Societies were consulted early on and agreed to guidelines only. They were adamant that there should be no enforceable my minium standards ever. This was unacceptable to them. Most of tje enclosure sizes in the document were reccomended sizes for guidlines only.

We made it clear at the time, that these would not be the mandatory minimums we would agree to if they would become enforceable standards.

From that point on we were all shut out of the process. Minimum standards has nothing to do with animal welfare, it is based on public perception only. As RAMS points out, this all came about to coincide with animal's being sold in NSW pet shops. They said early on in the process that this wouldn't happen without a mandatory code of practice.

 

[jacorin]

all bent over ... what it will do,is stop ppl from getting the larger species of animals,i think. who's going to go to that much trouble?? to fit any of the carpets,olives etc ??

well there goes my coastal and darwins...who wants to buy them??

 

[Umbral]

I must be doing my Maths wrong: womas are class C therefore need .4m2 or 40cm2 so isn't that saying they can live in a 20cm cube? I must be doing something wrong lol.

 

[Coppersimon]

Here is an interesting statement:

The Office of Environment and Heritage (OEH) has compiled this code of practice in
good faith, exercising all due care and attention. No representation is made about the
accuracy, completeness or suitability of the information in this publication for any
particular purpose. OEH shall not be liable for any damage which may occur to any
person or organisation taking action or not on the basis of this publication. Readers
should seek appropriate advice when applying the information to their specific needs.
This document may be subject to revision without notice and readers should ensure
they are using the latest version.

To me this would mean if you can justify what your doing and why your doing it nothing needs to change.

 

[Umbral]

Oops, just worked out where I went wrong!

 

[jacorin]

I must be doing my Maths wrong: womas are class C therefore need .4m2 or 40cm2 so isn't that saying they can live in a 20cm cube? I must be doing something wrong lol.

u may be right but then i forgot maths back in '82 when i left school....

 

[Peterwookie]

I am hoping that they have brought this in as a guide for new keepers , and leave it at that , there is no way that they can police these new tank sizes , everyone is different with the way they keep there snakes but at the end of the day as long as you animals are in great health & well cared for that is all that matters ....

 

[Zipidee]

To me this would mean if you can justify what your doing and why your doing it nothing needs to change.

These type of statements are designed to protect the department, not keepers. So if it turns out keeping a Woma in a 1 X 0.4 metre enclosure is detrimental to their health, the department can't be prosecuted. Or if you lose your house because you can't pay the mortgage any more, because you've had to spend thousands of dollars upgrading your collection, you can't sue the department. I think any responsible herp enthusiast would agree with the development of standards to ensure animal welfare, but some of these regs are bordering on ridiculous. And what this will do is drive people underground. If holding a licence means complying with unworkable regulations, people may be tempted to keep reptiles without a licence. This doesn't do anyone any good - least of all the animals. I wish they'd spend more money in places where it's really needed - like making trains run on time! Oh, and in case anyone from the department is reading this - my enclosure complies!

 

[Umbral]

New regulations don't take into account localities that are smaller in size than their counter parts eg. Tanami womas and gouldii flavi.

 

[Chris1]

the cage sizes are not unreasonable at all, not to mention we've all known for years that this will be happening.

whats unreasonable about keeping a large (2.5m) python in a 1.25x,.5metre cage, (which would have a smaller floor space than a standard 4x2 foot enclosure)
its still on the small side imo.

id happiiy pay higher licenseng fees to make sure it is patrolled and adhered to.

 

[Pinoy]

Would these new laws apply to commercial breeders?
Places like Snake Ranch and the many pet stores that will be selling reptiles?

 

[Zipidee]

Would these new laws apply to commercial breeders?
Places like Snake Ranch and the many pet stores that will be selling reptiles?

It may depend on the nature of their licence. Since it's not been legal to "commercially" sell reptiles as a business - in theory - until recently, they may develop a new licensing system for retailers, which will come with standards and guidelines. Don't be surprised if the standards for retailers are less strict than those for keepers. Governments tend to be a little scared of people like the Retailers Assn. I might be wrong, but I suspect I won't be. The argument may be retailers will only hold larger numbers of animals for short periods, therefore the space requirements, for example, may be smaller? Again, I'm only guessing, but it would make sense for them to develop retailer standards that differ from keeper standards. Bear in mind too, there is a difference between a commercial breeder - who may keep herps, but for many years - and a retailer, who will only aim to keep their stock for short periods.

 

[Varanoidea]

What makes them think people will actually comply to this? As someone said it will just drive everyone into a back alley situation. How would they even enforce cage sizes anyway? Officials going around to every license keeper in the state?

 

[Peterwookie]

the cage sizes are not unreasonable at all, not to mention we've all known for years that this will be happening.

whats unreasonable about keeping a large (2.5m) python in a 1.25x,.5metre cage, (which would have a smaller floor space than a standard 4x2 foot enclosure)
its still on the small side imo.

id happiiy pay higher licenseng fees to make sure it is patrolled and adhered to.

It is fantastic how passionate you are ..

 

[Chris1]

lol, i sense a little sarcasm,..

 

[Jessie_James]

Just went and checked my enclosures after waking up to this. Two are on the money and one is just under size so I have a year to rectify it. I don't disagree with this piece of legislation but I do feel for the people with a lot of animals that may need to spend the coin to keep there family members. Will it drive more people into back ally's? I think so.

 

[saximus]

the cage sizes are not unreasonable at all, not to mention we've all known for years that this will be happening.

whats unreasonable about keeping a large (2.5m) python in a 1.25x,.5metre cage, (which would have a smaller floor space than a standard 4x2 foot enclosure)
its still on the small side imo.

I tend to agree with this. All of my enclosures are well over these limits and the typical 4x2x2 and most people suggest for Carpets is satisfactory for anything except Scrubbies and Olives.
I do feel bad for the big guys who are using tubs though. It has the potential to really screw them over.

As for people wondering how it will be enforced, if it was me in charge, the logical thing to do would be to target people with a large number of animals on their books. The average hobbyist with a couple of snakes is more likely to provide larger enclosures than someone who owns 50+.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

This has been a smoke & mirrors activity from the department from the time of the first meeting, when 12 of the most experienced herpers in NSW, academics, professional keepers, and long-term private keepers made it clear, UNANIMOUSLY, that mandated enclosure sizes would not be accepted (for many very valid reasons) by them. Many of these individuals, including myself, were representatives of herp groups in NSW, and chosen to be spokespeople for the keeping community.

Despite the suggestion that the Code was drawn up in "consultation" with representatives of the herp community, there was obviously no intention to compromise on the issues we thought important, and as soon as it was apparent that we unanimously disagreed with some of the things that the Department wanted to be mandatory, we were shut out of all further discussion, and I mean ABSOLUTELY STONEWALLED.

As recently as a couple of months ago, two keeper's representatives (one a professional keeper, the other a veterinary academic), met with the Minister to discuss our concerns... obviously to no avail.

I've recently been having some thoughts about how keepers and the Department could improve communication, with the prospect of a better mutual working relationship. This is the worst possible outcome for keepers (and reptiles) in NSW - a big stick wielded by bureaucratic zealots is not the way to develop a mutually beneficial working relationship. We were assured of an open process on the first day of discussion, after that it became more and more mired in secrecy.

Jamie

 

[champagne]

They don't have the resources to in force this..... Queensland has had min cage requirements for years and no one follows them