Opinions on hybridization

[GBWhite]

Personally, as far as producing colour morphs (be they a snake of lizard) goes I don't care what keepers do with their animals. After all herpetoculture is just a hobby and as such it must be expected that people are going to mix and match animals in an attempt to produce more spectacular, aesthetically pleasing variations. Some no doubt for profit, others for no more than an interest.

The hobby has gone far beyond keeping reptiles in the context of herpetology. It appears to me that the market of late seems to be more in line with the pet industry these days and as such people who are only interested in maintaining a pet snake are going to go for the more spectacular looking animals be they a nice looking python, bearded dragon, bluetongue or wherever their interest lies.

As far as breeding snakes goes, from experience (be they pythons, colubrids or vens) it also appears to me that those who want to keep "pure" lines prefer the more spectacular looking snakes from a specific location in preference to the less attractive animals that occur within the same habitat, so couldn't that, in a way, be considered as selectively breeding snakes?

As far as "Carpet" Pythons go, I don't think creating colour morphs is going to have any detrimental long term effect on the gene pool. I've said it so often before and will say it again, it's pretty obvious to me that other than naturally occurring colour variations (which I'll add I believe is dictated by the extensive environments and micro habitats they inhabit) the Morelia spilota group are all the same snake that possess the unique ability to produce colour variations as a natural survival technique. I also believe that this is what makes them so attractive to keepers who want to mix and match.

For many, many reasons, unless, for whatever reason, a private keeper is selected to participate in a specific breeding program, it will never be the intention of the authorities to allow privately captive bred snakes to be released into the wild. So in all reality be they snakes that appear consistent in looks to with those that occur in their natural habitat or selected colour morphs (or designer snakes as some refer to them) it comes down to want the hobbyist wants to own.

George.

 

[pythoninfinite]

Damn, just when a juicy thread comes up I have to get dinner and organise food for lunch guests tomorrow!

I'll be back...

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

Well said George, it's true that it will never be the intention of the authorities to allow privately captive bred snakes to be released into the wild, but the authorities are concerned about accidental or deliberate releases. Sunshinevirus springs to mind.

I don't hate morphs and hybrids, I just worry that one day the wildlife authorities will say enough is enough (Jags spring to mind ;-)) and WE ALL shell face the consequences. Call it a self-preservation if you like but that's my concern. I always considered myself to be a custodian of our wildlife, never the "owner" and it will never change.

cheers
Michael

 

[Wally]

Damn, just when a juicy thread comes up I have to get dinner and organise food for lunch guests tomorrow!

I'll be back...

Jamie

Already done. Very prompt my local Chinese take away.

 

[BredliFreak]

I can't believe I missed this banter. Welp, better start a ******fight now.

IMO I think that as long as their are enough of each carpet keepers with their own knack (whether it be morphs, line breeding, cross-breeding or locale pure animals) I couldn't give less of a crap. Personally I like Locale specific animals and Pure morphs (e.g albino darwins, pure jungle Zebs etc.) but some of those jags and hybrids sure are stunning (ShaunMorelia's Hypo Bredli Caramel Jags) and I wouldn't mind owning some, though I wouldn't breed them. As much as I like Pure animals, at the end of the day does it really matter if all our carpets are a bit mixed (unless diseases and deformations are involved, that's another ranty paragraph that will be rewritten like 7 times due to timing out)? Some of you complain about breeding for looks/specific animals or breeding animals for money, but are "purists" any better? Caring only about "natural animals", just as others only care about "designer animals". Why do we even keep snakes? For the looks? Surely not, otherwise we would be huge hypocrites. We keep it because we are passionate about them (most of us anyways) and if how something looks or which square metre of land it comes from matters that much then I doubt your passion.

*WHOOOOOOOOO IM DONE, FOR NOW*

 

[SKYWLKR]

Are you a keeper of WA pythons? Because that's about where we are at.

No not at present. Have been though.

Not quite true.
All my animals are pure without doubt.

If I am still breeding pythons for another 20 years then they will be pure as well.I have zero interest in mongrels as do a lot of other keepers that I know.

People mixing types together do so with the hope of producing something totally different.In the vast majority of those produced they tend to be nothing special at all and compared to pures are miles inferior looks wise.

I agree with you there. My point I was trying to make was said in a generalized way however what you've stated is specifically informative.

The very first albino, a Darwin or North western, was found in the wild at a caravan park near Darwin I believe.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

From all accounts and research, yes it was "Blondie". But before that I was aware years ago of sightings of 'white snakes' around the Mount Glorious and Clear Mountain regions in Queensland back in the mid 80's.

 

[Bushfire]

Personally I would never say privately held captive bred reptiles would never become part of a conservation project. That may be the commonly held position now but things change. It will depend on how iconic the species is to the public and how important its ecological function is to a system.

Old world ecological thinking is more frequently challenged and labeled backward as new ideas surface and experimented. A good example of this is more and more translocations are happening and rewilding theories played with. Marla from Alice springs have been released into NSW and WA. Eastern quolls from tassie released in ACT and NSW. Bilbies from QLD sent to SW WA. Previously these ideas were rubbished but at some point someone must have thought we just have to use what we got, it wasn't ideal but it's either that or nothing.

i would agree it would be hard to foresee beardeds or childreni getting a call up but maybe not that far fetched that others like roughies or pelli's might one day. To be honest more breeding programs should include a private capacity within it. Especially so when funding levels have paved the way to debate about what species will we save and which ones we let become extinct.

 

[Waterrat]

BredliFreak, it's a pity that you treat this debate as a "******* fight". People here expressed their opinion just like you did, is there a need for hostility?

 

[pinefamily]

Already done. Very prompt my local Chinese take away.

Hot dog with the lot at the footy was good!

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BredliFreak, it's a pity that you treat this debate as a "******* fight". People here expressed their opinion just like you did, is there a need for hostility?

[MENTION=20031]Waterrat[/MENTION], I'd like to think BredliFreak was being tongue in cheek. That's how I took his comment. I might be wrong.

 

[BredliFreak]

@Waterrat piney nailed it, just having a bit of a sarcastic joke/making fun of a previous thread that I won't mention to avoid the forum equivalent of a Vietnam flashback :lol:

 

[pythoninfinite]

The biggest problem with captive breeding and release into the wild with reptiles is that, generally, the primary reason for their status to change from "safe" to threatened with (local) extinction is habitat damage or loss. Mammals are more mobile and can move over some distance to at least mitigate the threats posed by localised development, but reptiles are cryptic animals that probably don't move much locally from where they were born. If suitable habitat is constantly being destroyed, there won't be anywhere to release them. Without any actual research or facts to back me up, I would say that habitat destruction affects everything, predation by cats & foxes affects everything (especially small mammals & birds, but reptiles too), but by virtue of their cryptic colouration and secretive habits, reptiles can hold out for longer... until their habitat is physically changed or totally destroyed.

Interesting discussion on Radio National the other night about how the loss of so many small mammals (species and numbers) is drastically changing the nature of the soils in the entire country, with much reduced soil turnover from small surface diggers. Way off topic I know, but it just shows how the environment is changing before our very eyes, and in ways that we could never have foreseen...

Jamie