Possible inclusion body diseae (ibd) outbreak

[horsesrule]

Now what was the point of that giant copy and paste? A simple link would have sufficed, and i dare say majority will just skip over that info.

I will ask again, did you quarantine as i said, and do you argue that there was no possibility that you could have brought the disease home from the vets?

edit (also, did you read who is credited in the references at the bottom , kind of ironic )

I posted it because for some reason i cant answer everyones questions it will only let me post every 10 minutes or something.

I had the purchased snake in the quarantine room which is located in my house.

Yes in an ideal world we can quarantine in a nice little granny flat out the back but not all of us have one of them in the backyard.

Its very unlikely i brought any disease with me home from the vet because the animals were already sick when i went with them.

 

[rockman]

correct the only way is to have multiple rooms and to quarintine for a minimun of 2 years very hard ,people need to stop buying ,to sort all the virus infected sourses

Do you think that 2 years is enough ? .................. What 4 -5 years , do you think it would be possible to still be there ? .

Not having a dig , just asking !.

Cheers

 

[Ishah]

It will be near impossible to get an accurate diagnosis of either of these deseases as
there are no testing methods or facilities available in Australia.
At best after autopsy all that could be given is an educated guess! Hardly 100% accurate

Something I was also indirectly getting at... Unless she sends the appropriate tissue samples O.S. she has buckley's and none of getting a 100% conclusion/answer hence no way of having any REAL credibility to stand up in court with! Hence why bother developing/ trying to develop a court case when nothing can be proven? At best, it would be better just to hope for peace of mind, as you are the only one you are trying to prove it to and you dont have to prove it to anyone else but yourself to get that (peace of mind).

ALSO I was getting at all her many assumptions, "almost certain" 's and "high probabilities" that she keeps going on about, when really it is just HER guess, not an educated guess (as, in most people's books AND mine, you have to have appropriate credentials and experience i.e. a vets degree and have been practicing and dealing with such (pathological)cases for 10yrs or so, to be worthy of your guess being called "educated") her guess is basically an uneducated guess at that... Sorry you didn't read my post as how it was suppose to come across... maybe I really do have undiagnosed dyslexia? :lol:

 

[=bECS=]

I posted it because for some reason i cant answer everyones questions it will only let me post every 10 minutes or something.

I had the purchased snake in the quarantine room which is located in my house.

Yes in an ideal world we can quarantine in a nice little granny flat out the back but not all of us have one of them in the backyard.

Its very unlikely i brought any disease with me home from the vet because the animals were already sick when i went with them.

So you showered and disinfected your shoes before and after entering the quarantine room?
You said the vet stated after autopsy that the snake died from worms and a perforated bowel. You also stated that the so called time period between infection and symptoms is approximately 30 days, which would have been roughly the same time between your visits and your snakes being sick now.

If i work on your basis of making accusations based purely on probabilities, then is it not a probability that the infection could have come from the vets based mathematically on the time periods between vet visits and symptoms?

 

[horsesrule]

2 vets so far believe that in there educated guess and based on balance of probabilities the snakes have one of these diseases.

 

[Casey]

In my opinion (which may not mean much) the lines between OPMV IBD are very blurred, they seem to have very similar symptoms eg stargazing weight loss secondary RI to name just a few

IBD infected animals can be [FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]asymptomatic carriers and so can OPMV infected animals. I personally have had a python for 16 months before any signs showed up. She was my only snake and if i ever came in contact with other collections would not handle her until I had changed, showered etc And would even not handle her on the same day if it could be avoided. I had her euthanased when she got sick. I later found out that the man i purchased her off had lost his snakes to something showing similar signs as what Nibbles had.
I would say that in my experience the quarantine period needs to be much longer than the three to six months stated in the paper posted by HR. I have even had advise from the Western Plains Zoo vet clinic that a two year quarantine may not even be effective. Now that is a scary thought because think if you know anyone who quarantines for that long??

The thought that i am beginning to have and i may very well be wrong, is that these diseases are much like HIV/AIDs in humans where a human can live with the HIV virus for many years and show no signs and seem to be in good health..then something happens to tip the scales, some sort of secondary infection which the immune system struggles to fight, in humans this is when it is classed as full blown aids..my thinking is that with our snakes this may be when an [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]asymptomatic carrier begins to show signs and become a "Chronic poor doer" and usually dies shortly after.

I'm not trying to say that HR did or didn't get it from this seller, because I just wouldn't know. I have just learnt that even though after 12months or more of owning a new snake its no guarantee that the animal is completely disease free.
[/FONT]

 

[Ishah]

:faints: Again, post misread...must really have dyslexia (should go see a quack about it lol) I was not directing "your uneducated guesses" soley at whether it is or isnt IBD or not HR, was more directing it at almost everything that you have ever posted on the matter, i.e.nearly every post you say "most likely", "almost certain that it is...", "based on the probabilities", "the probabilities are very high/there is a high probability of..." etc etc and you dont just say this(those phrases) about whether it is or isnt IBD or OPMV, you say it on how it is spread, your quarantine procedures etc etc... everything...

Not having a dig, just pointing out that nothing you have really said, has much to back it up, or anything just yet, and not many will believe anything until all your three vets have done autopsies etc etc (Also how can both vets be almost certain without performing autopsies is a bit skew-if (sp?) it would be more of an idea - splitting hairs, I know, but that just what it would take for me to believe it is what you assume it is... the sick python you have now, sounds like it might have it, but who would know? not me)

Anyways, seeings as someone nearly never understands my posts, I'm just going to put it down to the fact that I may well have dyslexia, but will find out more when I see the quack/doc, as it has been suggested many times by myself and others that I have dyslexia, always jokingly, but now Im starting to worry :shock:, and I will stop trying to explain my previous posts as it is getting quite frustrating!:evil: Maybe I'm on a different thinking pattern/higher brainwave/frequency to most :lol:LOL! (jokes)

 

[horsesrule]

I agree and the more i think about it the more i realise at the end of the day it actually doesnt matter how i got it although i have my personal beliefs.

This disease is going to ruin herps.

Why would anyone in there right mind go buy blackheads, womas, gtp's or even an expensive jungle with this risk out there.

Its just not worth it.

Until they come up with a vaccine and or cure to this disease and also a way of testing for it ill never buy another snake again in my lifetime.

I have had a number of messages from people who have had this happen to them so im no where near the first in recent years and im certain ill be no where near the last.

 

[No-two]

Why would anyone in there right mind go buy blackheads, womas, gtp's or even an expensive jungle with this risk out there.

Because some of us can afford to buy good clean reptiles, rather then go to a shop and buy crap quality diseas ridden animals.

Maybe if you were buying womas or gtps you'd have thought about who you were buying from and bought quality.

They're not allowed to sell womas and gtps in shops so if you'd spent the money you'd be scott free and we wouldn't have to read all these ridiculous comments.

I'm not at all saying it's the sellers problem either, you should've quarantined better, and you're jumping the gun way to fast. I hope it turns out a problem to do with the excessive mite spray treatment. They're chemicals, you shouldn't use them unless you 99.9% have to.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I have to agree with others, for someone who's had herps for 20years you don't know much.

 

[Troyster]

i have just sat and read every post in this thread and now have a headache,but the few things i have taken from it is there is no proof and it will be very hard to obtain such evidence,and that is what is needed as you dont win court cases on probabilities and speculation.the second point i would like to make is you need to be EXTREMELY careful from here on in horsesrule as i believe you are treading a very fineline and are coming quite close to finding yourself in court on a defimation matter as you are making huge accusations without any hard evidence to back it up.anyway thats my 2 cents worth and eagerly wait to see where the moderators allow this to go

 

[Ewan]

HR, do you know what happened to the collections of others who purchased pythons from this high volume seller? An apparent highly contagious disease such as this could potentionally have impacted on hundreds and hundred of collections. Im sure from all the active threads so far on this topic someone would be in contact with you in the same situation with this seller. My advice would be to band together with others who are in your predicament to build your case against this seller. With all the evidence so far being circumstancial, with many many possible senarios, it seems like the only way. P.S. Sorry if this has already been covered, so many posts to read through.

 

[rockman]

Because some of us can afford to buy good clean reptiles, rather then go to a shop and buy crap quality diseas ridden animals.

Maybe if you were buying womas or gtps you'd have thought about who you were buying from and bought quality.

They're not allowed to sell womas and gtps in shops so if you'd spent the money you'd be scott free and we wouldn't have to read all these ridiculous comments.

I'm not at all saying it's the sellers problem either, you should've quarantined better, and you're jumping the gun way to fast. I hope it turns out a problem to do with the excessive mite spray treatment. They're chemicals, you shouldn't use them unless you 99.9% have to.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I have to agree with others, for someone who's had herps for 20years you don't know much.

Hey Mr RICHY RICH KID ,

I hope that one day something like this happens to you .
Maybe , and only maybe , you mightn't be such a W-NKER .

This is most of the problem, instant KNOW-IT-ALL'S , that dont know SQUAT !.

Since you know everything , tell us how to stop it . If you can do that , HELL , YOUR BETTER THEN MOST VETS HERE IN AUSTRALIA ! .

Give me a list of names of people that you have brought snakes off , and i might rock your little world .

Cheers

 

[beeman]

Something I was also indirectly getting at... Unless she sends the appropriate tissue samples O.S. she has buckley's and none of getting a 100% conclusion/answer hence no way of having any REAL credibility to stand up in court with! Hence why bother developing/ trying to develop a court case when nothing can be proven? At best, it would be better just to hope for peace of mind, as you are the only one you are trying to prove it to and you dont have to prove it to anyone else but yourself to get that (peace of mind).

ALSO I was getting at all her many assumptions, "almost certain" 's and "high probabilities" that she keeps going on about, when really it is just HER guess, not an educated guess (as, in most people's books AND mine, you have to have appropriate credentials and experience i.e. a vets degree and have been practicing and dealing with such (pathological)cases for 10yrs or so, to be worthy of your guess being called "educated") her guess is basically an uneducated guess at that... Sorry you didn't read my post as how it was suppose to come across... maybe I really do have undiagnosed dyslexia? :lol:

Ishah
Sorry mate i wasnt having a go at you, Just sick to death of the statments relating to working with 3 vets now and they will come back with a positive result for one of these deseases! These things CANT be diagnosed in this country with any accuracy!

 

[Chappy]

Because some of us can afford to buy good clean reptiles, rather then go to a shop and buy crap quality diseas ridden animals.

Maybe if you were buying womas or gtps you'd have thought about who you were buying from and bought quality.

They're not allowed to sell womas and gtps in shops so if you'd spent the money you'd be scott free and we wouldn't have to read all these ridiculous comments.

I'm not at all saying it's the sellers problem either, you should've quarantined better, and you're jumping the gun way to fast. I hope it turns out a problem to do with the excessive mite spray treatment. They're chemicals, you shouldn't use them unless you 99.9% have to.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I have to agree with others, for someone who's had herps for 20years you don't know much.

Stupid thing to say mate. Thanks for your contribution to the thread. By far one of the most un-educated , least helpfull and arrogant posts i have seen on APS.

 

[tenacres1100]

I think you will find that those with substantial collections usually quarantine in a room separate to the house (ie a shed or specialy built room)
However, if you are quarantining in a room in your house, you need to change all clothes, and disinfect/shower before and after entering the room, this includes your shoes as well.

Now unless you have done this, it is very easy for you to pass any bugs and/or virus onto your main collection.

a breeder told me the other day he won't even enter a "pet shop/ repitile shop" these days and if he has too, he strips off everything as soon as he gets home, as all is washed including him! I thought he was joking , I now know better:shock:
very scarry stuff:evil:

 

[olivehydra]

Do you think that 2 years is enough ? .................. What 4 -5 years , do you think it would be possible to still be there ? .

Not having a dig , just asking !.

Cheers

Its been almost two years since my OPMV death (next Feb) and the last snake to enter my collection prior was already close to 18 months old. She is still healthy today so if she is the carrier I would say no, four years isnt safe. If it was another snake (that died) in my collection who was the vector, then that death occured almost nine years ago - so seven years to infect.
BTW, the mate of the OPMV snake is also still doing well.

 

[amazonian]

Stupid thing to say mate. Thanks for your contribution to the thread. By far one of the most un-educated , least helpfull and arrogant posts i have seen on APS.

I don't know, I semi agree with them but would of worded it differntly.
I think what they meant to say was "that if you were spending serious coin, you would have done your research beforehand and wouldn't trust any tom dick or harry when it comes to stock"

Sounds reasonable to me.
I know I spent along time researching breeders before I purchased my GTP.
Big difference when it comes to spending $150 compared to $20,000 and I am sure you would agree that when it comes to the larger figures you put more effort into where you are spending it and making sure you are getting what you pay for quality wise.

 

[gozz]

Do you think that 2 years is enough ? .................. What 4 -5 years , do you think it would be possible to still be there ? .

Not having a dig , just asking !.

Cheers

Personally, no but it looks like we will need one room for every newly aquired snake. It is possible that the virus can lay dorment ,so its like playing Rusian roulette, Have they had many wild cases ? cheers

 

[gozz]

Hey Mr RICHY RICH KID ,

I hope that one day something like this happens to you .
Maybe , and only maybe , you mightn't be such a W-NKER .

This is most of the problem, instant KNOW-IT-ALL'S , that dont know SQUAT !.

Since you know everything , tell us how to stop it . If you can do that , HELL , YOUR BETTER THEN MOST VETS HERE IN AUSTRALIA ! .

Give me a list of names of people that you have brought snakes off , and i might rock your little world .

Cheers

Second that

 

[Colin]

yes I agree with amazonian. I would have worded it differently but I strongly believe that pet shops are the most likely place that you will pick up an animal with disease, worms. mites etc.
The first place that an unscrupulous seller would try and offload diseased animals (before they die) is to a pet shop (imo) or on some basically anonymous online market like petlink etc

Personally I would never buy animals from any pet shop (australia wide) as I feel the risk is far too great of getting an animal that will or could, infect my collection. I only ever buy animals from blokes I know that have clean collections.. If I cant locate what I want within this small group then I dont look elsewhere and just go without... Its just not worth the risk (and expense) and stress and disappointment etc I don't even buy animals from breeders or keepers that are totally unknown to me, or who dont have a prior good reputation.. no matter what the price..

People should remember that if someone breeds quality animals and is reasonably known or well known to others in the hobby and online etc.. its less likely that an animal they sell would be sick. Apart from the fact that its totally wrong to sell such an animal, these breeders have a reasonable knowledge of reptiles and disease and if there was any problems they would likely be on top of it and not sell anything until it was erradicated. A good repuation for selling quality healthy animals would be shattered by selling rubbish so its in the sellers interests to sell you a good quality animal. that said.. sometime accidents do happen, but the probability of getting a good healthy animal from a known breeder with a good reputation is far greater than anywhere else. Price of the animal should be secondary to the health and quality.

I see posts on here and elsewhere all the time about this snake or that from unknown seller A or B or some Petlink advert etc and shake my head.. even if you paid double the price for a top shelf excellent quality animal you would be far better off in the long run than buying cheap diseased rubbish.

I hope your collection pulls through health wise horsesrule.. best of luck.