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I agree, and also, without knowing the outcome of the returned snake there is really no way (that I can see) of you proving it came from his stock either, hence the reason I asked if there was a way of finding out what happened with it...That IMO would have been your best bet/hope at a "strong, winnable" case, and as you said HR, you don't have a way of knowing the outcome of the returned snake, so I doubt you will get far with the case you are building now :? Goodluck

Even if HR did know of any ongoing health issues relating to the returned animal, HR would have fun trying to prove that the returned animal infected her collection and not the other way around.
 
As for my quarantine it was fine, you could argue one of the snakes now affected shouldnt have been in the quarantine room i would agree however thats just 1 that doesnt explain the other being sick.

Also considering the other one now sick is fed on different days, cleaned on different days, housed in a completely different room in which the door is kept shut.

I'm a bit confused. If the new addition was quarantined, how did this other animal become symptomatic if it wasn't pre-existing?
 
Horserule thats fair enough if its IBD but who is saying its not OPMV. Most of same signs and symptoms, yet you think you can differentiate between the two?

I now agree with Flinders, for someone who has apparantly keeping reptiles for so long you do not seem to know much, and are arrogant on top of that. If you were any bit saavy with reptile diseases you would have an open mind as nothing is really proven about transmission of the disease, and you would realise that what I said makes perfect sense instead of just retorting you basically know more than me.. hm.

I don't really care if you have been keeping snakes before I was born, I have done my fair share of research thank you. I will and do respect herp veterans as of course they are going to know more than me, noone stops learning anyway. But I do not respect arrogant persons such as yourself who think they are better than everyone, to me you are no better than a 5yr old.
 
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Horserule thats fair enough if its IBD but who is saying its not OPMV. Most of same signs and symptoms, yet you think you can differentiate between the two?

I now agree with Flinders, for someone who has apparantly keeping reptiles for so long you do not seem to know much, and are arrogant on top of that.
settle if it was my collection i would be in jail right now
 
i havent read the whole thread since this afternoon, however, recently you started a thread saying a vet you visit stated that 50% of suspected RI cases he sees end up being IBD.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...sion-body-disease-in-australian-pythons-97718

Now if thats true, wouldnt it be possible that you have carried the suspected virus home from the vet, and the time period you state would have coincided with your visit to them with the original snake wouldnt it?

Its just a little strange that after you started that thread, now you have started one saying your snakes have IBD as well.......
 
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I'm a bit confused. If the new addition was quarantined, how did this other animal become symptomatic if it wasn't pre-existing?


As this virus is most likely airborne that is the only way it could have occured.

In reality if it turns out im correct, unless you have a nuclear style bunker that filters all your air coming out of your quarintine room no quarantine measure will be good enough.

Thats whats scary about this.
 
Even if HR did know of any ongoing health issues relating to the returned animal, HR would have fun trying to prove that the returned animal infected her collection and not the other way around.


True, very true, because the worm infestation that the new animal(s) already had, could have made them more susceptible to a "dormant" disease as their immune system would have been already tiring from the worms and bacterial infections due to the perforation of the bowel or whatever it was etc etc... And if the "dormant" disease was "awakened" by the more susceptible animals, it could have easily of been passed back to the rest of the collection through the other animal that was housed in the same room and by human contact/cross contamination by forgetting to wash hands, change clothes and showering between the Q/T animals and the rest of the collection... It only takes one tiney little slip-up....

I can see where you are coming from...haha blows my theory out of the water then! I didnt think of that... These are all just my random thoughts as to what could have happened etc... not insinuating anything in anyway... Given the new spin on what I thought your best hope would have been, I fail to see how a valid case can become of it HR, I think you are fighting a losing battle if you do take it to court, all you can really hope to get from it is peace of mind that it is or isnt one or both of these dreaded diseases once the vets are done...best of luck tho.

Haha lucky you have us helping you poke any holes in it that you may not have seen otherwise, helping you choose other avenues/courses of action ;)
 
I didn't think it was considered "most likely" airborne, unless some profound
new understanding has come about recently, don't rule out human error so soon.

Maybe ease back on the speculations and guess work, and hold off until your
able to consult with a VET, or have tests run a deceased python at least to get some
understanding on the situation.

You seem hell bent on your speculations.
 
As this virus is most likely airborne that is the only way it could have occured.

In reality if it turns out im correct, unless you have a nuclear style bunker that filters all your air coming out of your quarintine room no quarantine measure will be good enough.

Thats whats scary about this.

I think you will find that those with substantial collections usually quarantine in a room separate to the house (ie a shed or specialy built room)
However, if you are quarantining in a room in your house, you need to change all clothes, and disinfect/shower before and after entering the room, this includes your shoes as well.

Now unless you have done this, it is very easy for you to pass any bugs and/or virus onto your main collection.
 
It is all about risk minimisation. Several of the big breeders that I am in regular contact with that have established lines rarely introduce new snakes into their main collection. If they do, they employ thorough (but not perfect) quarantine methods to minimise the risk of introduce contaminated snakes. Luckily enough there are people like Danny Brown who openly admit that they have diseased animals and do the correct thing by euthanising the whole lot, rather than flogging them off on the sly.


“Python keepers have had a much easier time [than boa keepers] with IBD, basically because it appears to affect only the brain and death comes more quickly. The advantage is that the snake may show symptoms in weeks after exposure, (star-gazing, poor motor control, loss of appetite, coiling or constricting uncontrollably when they are stimulated) and so far as is known, pythons do not live longer than three months after infection. Python keepers are usually able to nip the problem in the bud very quickly.”

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bush/append21.html

That makes for an interesting read .
So if someone had a clean collection for , lets say 4-5 years , would they be considered a clean collection ? .

Jonno , you seem to be the expert in ' risk minimisation ' ..........................what do you think ? . I would love to hear expert opinion on this sensitive matter .
 
Horserule thats fair enough if its IBD but who is saying its not OPMV. Most of same signs and symptoms, yet you think you can differentiate between the two?

I now agree with Flinders, for someone who has apparantly keeping reptiles for so long you do not seem to know much, and are arrogant on top of that. If you were any bit saavy with reptile diseases you would have an open mind as nothing is really proven about transmission of the disease, and you would realise that what I said makes perfect sense instead of just retorting you basically know more than me.. hm.

I don't really care if you have been keeping snakes before I was born, I have done my fair share of research thank you. I will and do respect herp veterans as of course they are going to know more than me, noone stops learning anyway. But I do not respect arrogant persons such as yourself who think they are better than everyone, to me you are no better than a 5yr old.

Im sure at 18 you know everything, thats clearly proved with this "to me you are no better than a 5yr old."
 
I think you will find that those with substantial collections usually quarantine in a room separate to the house (ie a shed or specialy built room)
However, if you are quarantining in a room in your house, you need to change all clothes, and disinfect/shower before and after entering the room, this includes your shoes as well.

Now unless you have done this, it is very easy for you to pass any bugs and/or virus onto your main collection.

Bec's ,
What if those people with substantial collections dont quarantine properly , ie: put all new arrivals into the same 6 x 6 mtr room , what happens then ? , and what if they buy / recieve in numbers of new arrivals , and put them all into the same room , it would be like " lucky dip " , what do you think ? .

Cheers
 
I think you will find that those with substantial collections usually quarantine in a room separate to the house (ie a shed or specialy built room)
However, if you are quarantining in a room in your house, you need to change all clothes, and disinfect/shower before and after entering the room, this includes your shoes as well.

Now unless you have done this, it is very easy for you to pass any bugs and/or virus onto your main collection.


Haha you state this SO much better than how I stated it (well TRIED anyways :lol: I think I have some form of dyslexia!:lol:)... And I was thinking too, how can you be SO sure, HR, that it IS infact airborne? Or are you just assuming that it is as you cannot think of any other way it could have got to the other animals? Did you quarantine like becs said? i.e. shower and change ur clothes before and after entering and dealing with each room and animal? So far it is only you (that I know of anyways) who it has apparently been transmitted to other snakes via the air... And you don't even know yet for certain that you are dealing with this disease... Do you know of any other cases that it has been proven to be transmitted airborne? You may not even be dealing with either of these diseases! Maybe you should wait til the vets are done and conclusive tests have been done and you know for absolute certain that it is actually one of these diseases or not these at all before you go stating that "it is almost certain this is the (only) way IBD/OPMV are transmitted"... (Yes, yes, I know, probabilities, probabilities, but for a court case, you need FACTS, and you ARE trying to build a potential case from what I last heard/read) Sorry, I'm just a bit sceptical when nothing has been 100% proven yet... When the results come back, and they show to be 100% conclusive, let us know... Try not to assume and jump to conclusions so much JUST yet...like others have said, and be patient and wait for the vets to finish ;)
 
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Im sure at 18 you know everything, thats clearly proved with this "to me you are no better than a 5yr old."

The "5 year old" comment is most probably refering to your attidude. As i have already said anyone who doesnt agree with you, you think is wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and i think if you start accepting others opinions you will get along with everyone on this forum a lot better then what you have started with.
 
Bec's ,
What if those people with substantial collections dont quarantine properly , ie: put all new arrivals into the same 6 x 6 mtr room , what happens then ? , and what if they buy / recieve in numbers of new arrivals , and put them all into the same room , it would be like " lucky dip " , what do you think ? .

Cheers
correct the only way is to have multiple rooms and to quarintine for a minimun of 2 years very hard ,people need to stop buying ,to sort all the virus infected sourses
 
Bec's ,
What if those people with substantial collections dont quarantine properly , ie: put all new arrivals into the same 6 x 6 mtr room , what happens then ? , and what if they buy / recieve in numbers of new arrivals , and put them all into the same room , it would be like " lucky dip " , what do you think ? .

Cheers

I agree completely.

I think you took my post the wrong way.
My point was that most with expensive collections quarantine the right way. Which is in a separate dwelling to the one the main collection is housed.
I said usually, because its not always the case.

Alot of people seem to think that to quarantine just means to keep in a separate room and wash hands between handling or interacting. This is not the case.

I was in no way defending the seller, i find their response to HR from the word go disgusting, and it took a somewhat public flaming (although the name couldn't be mentioned in the threads, majority know who the seller is) to get some action.

I have never and will never deal with this seller, i have always found their practices appalling, as well as their public displays and failure to be sure those they are 'teaching' understand the full consequences in dealing with certain snakes. ;)

At the same time, HR cant just jump the gun and blame the seller until all possible reasons have been covered/ruled out.

For example, transmission from the vet, which i might add, seems to have been ignored.
 
http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Inclusion Body Disease[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Inclusion body disease (IBD) has been increasingly diagnosed in boas and pythons ("boids"). It is believed to be a retrovirus. The way it affects these two groups of snakes is slightly different but the long term effects are the same: the disease is terminal in those animals who exhibit symptoms of the disease.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Pythons, although their symptoms may be somewhat less, are just as affected as boas. There are asymptomatic carriers, so the fact that a boa or python within an infected collection does not show signs of the illness should not be taken to mean that it is immune to it. Boas are most associated with being asymptomatic carriers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Signs of infection in boas include central nervous system disorders such as paralysis, being unable to right itself when turned over, "star-gazing", inability to strike or constrict. Other signs include chronic regurgitation, extreme weight loss, respiratory infections, and dysecdysis due to the inability to control body movements enough to rub off the old skin. The disease is rapidly fatal in young and juvenile boas, typified by rapid onset of flaccid paralysis.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]In pythons, the disease progresses much more rapidly than in boas. Along with the above symptoms (excluding the chronic regurgitation), pythons also tend toward infectious stomatitis ("mouth rot"), heightened or exaggerated reflex responses, disorientation (which may be precipitated by the onset of central blindness) and loss of motor coordination.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]What causes this disease? Intracytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies have been identified in the epithelial cells of the kidneys and pancreas. Neuronal degeneration and lesions form in the spinal cord and brain, and may be accompanied by myelin degeneration and nerve damage. Damage to the spleen is also found, with that organ being grossly atrophied and fibrosed. Electron microscopy has found that the organism falls into the retrovirus category.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, has been found in collections in which IBD has occurred but it is not implicated in all cases of infection.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]As this has been identified as a viral entity, it may spread like a virus, through contact between infectious organisms (such as housing an infected snake with a previously healthy one) or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]There is at this time no treatment for the disease and, as it is at this time always fatal and highly contagious, euthanasia is the course of action recommended. Even if the snake can be kept alive through supportive measures (hydration and force-feeding), the damage to the nerves, brain, spinal cord and internal organs is so great--and progressive--that live is only prolonged with an ever decreasing quality and increasing pain.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Due to the increasing incidence of this disease, it cannot be stated or urged strongly enough to QUARANTINE ALL NEW BOIDS upon acquisition for at least 3-6 months, and to take precautions when visiting other collections, pet stores and expos/swaps.[/FONT]​



[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Sources[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Bennett, R. Avery. (1996) Neurology. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 141-148. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Done, Lisa B. (1996). Postural Abnormalities. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 406-411. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Murray, Michael J. (1996) Pneumonia and Normal Respiratory Function. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 396-405 W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Schumacher, Juergen, Elliott R. Jacobson, Bruce L. Homer, Jack M. Gaskin. (1994). Inclusion Body Disease in Boid Snakes. Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 25(4):51-524.[/FONT]



http://members.iinet.net.au/~bush/append21.html


Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) in Pythons:


a Reminder of the Importance of Quarantine



By Brian Bush, 9 Birch Place, Stoneville WA 6081​





INTRODUCTION


Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) of boid snakes (pythons and boas) has been recognised since the mid 1970’s (Schumacher et al., 1994). Although other families of snakes are reported to have contracted IBD (Colubridae and Viperidae), it is primarily a python (subfamily Pythoninae) and boa (subfamily Boinae) specific disease. The first occurrence of IBD was only documented in Australia as recently as 1998 in a carpet python (Morelia spilota variegata) and a diamond python (M. s. spilota) from Queensland (Carlisle-Nowak et al., 1998). Although the Carlisle-Nowak et al. paper is the first published record, they mention that unpublished cases of Australian pythons with clinical and histological findings consistent with IBD have been recorded in the New South Wales Taronga Park pathology register. There is also a belief in the herpetological community that IBD has already caused a significant number of deaths in a Victorian reptile collection. Possibly the first record for Western Australia is August 1999 when Dr George Scott of Deep Wood Veterinary Clinic and Dr John Jardine from Vetpath Laboratory Services reported IBD Boid Virus in a python they were examining that had died from a mysterious illness.

Pythons are native to Australia and boas are exotic; both subfamilies are kept in zoos and as pets by private individuals. There is no treatment currently available for IBD and it is invariably fatal in pythons. Although the disease can be diagnosed in sick pythons, it is usually only confirmed at autopsy. One of the principal researchers into IBD, Dr Elliott Jacobson, University of Florida, has isolated three retroviruses in snakes with IBD and expects the development of a serological test to determine exposure to these within about twelve months.

Although the route of transmission of this disease is unknown, infestation with snake mite (Ophionyssus natricis) is a common finding in many affected snakes and may play a role in viral transmission (Schumacher, 1996). Dave Barker, well-known North American boid breeder (pers. com., 25 Jan. 2000) states, “IBD really has proven to be almost no problem at all in collections with no mites, but it has decimated boid collections with bad mite problems.”

Of considerable concern in Western Australia are three records from near Perth of snake mite infestations in wild caught carpet pythons (Morelia spilota imbricata). The first of these was a very dehydrated specimen from Roleystone in September 1994 and documented in the Western Australian Society of Amateur Herpetologists’ WASAH Newsletter No. 2. This snake died shortly afterwards from what was believed at the time to be a mite-related disease, however no autopsy was done to confirm if this was so. A second infested individual was collected at Martin in late 1995 and a third as recently as October 1999. The occurrence of snake mite in the wild in WA probably explains the sudden outbreaks of infestation in collections reported to me recently. Hoser (1995) refers to the establishment of mite in Melbourne, Victoria.

Both snake mite and diseases such as IBD highlight the need for quarantine procedures to be in place when animals are acquired and the need for close scrutiny of animals before their release. Given that volunteers with permanent collections of their own temporarily hold many reptiles prior to relocation during Regulation 4 and 15 removals, it is possible that locally exotic pathogens can be introduced to the wild. The relatively recent identification of this disease and the little we know about it call for some caution at this point in time.

One of the aims of this article is to promote safeguards to

· Reduce the transmission of IBD between reptile collections and outbreaks of other diseases.
· Reduce the negative impact an outbreak could have on the new pet-keeping system to be implemented here shortly (Crown Law has completed the first draft of the legislative changes and returned them to CALM).
· Protect the wild population from symptomatic IBD.
· Warn other zoo facilities and keepers of any recorded outbreaks through some formal disease notification process.

It is also expected that further benefits of this article, through its wide readership, will be to

· Encourage minimum standards of competence in husbandry procedures in commercial facilities able to supply reptiles to the pet trade.
· Raise awareness in keepers of the importance of basic hygiene and quarantine procedures.



RECOMMENDATIONS


Quarantine should always be a fundamental protocol when introducing a new animal into a collection to reduce the risk of introducing disease or parasites. Animals brought in directly from the wild may pose a lesser risk but the acquisition of a captive animal, perhaps originating from a questionable source (eg a confiscated or locally exotic wild caught animal) poses a real problem from a husbandry point of view.

It may not be possible to totally eradicate symptomatic IBD from Western Australia, but hopefully it can be isolated from other collections and the wild population. Any collection/facility in this state with an outbreak of IBD must be quarantined until a successful treatment of this disease is found. Quarantine and safeguard procedures should include

1. No further reptiles being acquired until the collection/facility is deemed clear of IBD.
2. No reptiles being allowed to leave until it is deemed clear of IBD.
3. CALM personnel undertaking inspections of quarantined facilities being required to shower prior to visiting other collections on the same day.
4. Notification by CALM of known IBD outbreaks to all commercial keepers.
It may also be sensible for CALM to enter into a contractual arrangement with one or more private zoos for them to care for confiscated animals and as a component of this contract provide the funding for the necessary quarantine facility to be installed.

General information on mite control and quarantine: Newly acquired reptiles should be isolated from the collection for no less than three months and kept on a white paper substrate. At the first opportunity a faecal sample should be examined for larger parasites, blood, tissue and excessive mucus - if any of these is found then identification of the parasite or the cause, by a pathologist if necessary, and the relevant treatment commenced.

Snake mites are the scourge of many keepers in the Eastern States and overseas. Their ability to both convey disease and kill reptiles in all but the most vigilant keepers’ collections is widely acknowledged. Although small (a large female may be one-third the size of a pin head) they will be obvious on the white paper substrate as miniature black tick-like animals - the larger females have a whitish spot on the belly. A simple method of eradication of these on an infested reptile is the isolation of the host without water and its exposure to Sureguard Ministripsä in minimum-ventilated (pegboard lid) glass terrariums for three cycles of twenty-four hours separated by forty-eight hours between each exposure. It is paramount for keepers handling infested reptiles to scrub their hands immediately afterwards so that the mites are not transported to uninfested reptiles.

If you already keep and you suddenly find you have a mite infestation, it is important that cleaning cages before killing the infestation within does not compound the transfer of live mite. This can be achieved by placing the pesticide strip within the respective cage for at least twenty-four hours before cleaning.

To reinforce quarantine as a minimum husbandry procedure after the implementation of the new keeping system in WA I recommend -

1. Commercial suppliers of reptiles experiencing infestations of snake mite (Ophionyssus natricis) and/or lizard mite (Hirstiella trombidiiformis) are required as a condition of their licence to notify prospective clients of this.
2. CALM temporarily prohibit commercial suppliers experiencing high numbers of deaths from supplying reptiles and investigate, at the supplier’s expense, to determine the cause of these deaths through postmortem examination and only lift the prohibition order once the pathogen and effective treatment have been identified.

On a positive note regarding IBD I include the following paragraph from Dave Barker (pers. com., 28 Jan. 2000),

“Python keepers have had a much easier time [than boa keepers] with IBD, basically because it appears to affect only the brain and death comes more quickly. The advantage is that the snake may show symptoms in weeks after exposure, (star-gazing, poor motor control, loss of appetite, coiling or constricting uncontrollably when they are stimulated) and so far as is known, pythons do not live longer than three months after infection. Python keepers are usually able to nip the problem in the bud very quickly.”

Further, to reduce the potential for reptile disease epidemics to occur I recommend that CALM, rather than confiscating animals suspected of being illegal from known Western Australian keepers or residents, implement a “confiscation in situ” procedure by issuing an order to the keeper prohibiting the respective animals’ movement until investigations and court cases are complete. This will benefit CALM by reducing their workload, greatly reduce the risk of transmitting disease between collections and reduce the stress on the animals in question.


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS


I thank the many people, too numerous to list here, who contributed to this document’s preparation during several earlier drafts when it was being prepared as a formal submission. In this modified form I take full responsibility for its content and accuracy.


REFERENCES


CARLISLE-NOWAK, M.S., SULLIVAN, N., CARRIGAN, M., KNIGHT, C., RYAN, C. and JACOBSON, E.R. 1998. Inclusion body disease in two captive Australian pythons (Morelia spilota variegata and Morelia spilota spilota). Aust. Vet. J. 76 (2): 98-100.
HOSER, R.T. 1995. Release into hell. Monitor 7 (2): 77-88.
SCHUMACHER, J., JACOBSON, E.R., HOMER, B.L. and GASKIN, J.M. 1994. Inclusion body disease in boid snakes. J. Zoo. Wildlf. Med. 25: 511-524.
SCHUMACHER, J. 1996. Viral diseases. In: Mader, D.R. Editor. Reptile Medicine and Surgery. W.P. Saunders, Philadelphia, 230-231.




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Im sure at 18 you know everything, thats clearly proved with this "to me you are no better than a 5yr old."

Mate, I am ADMITTING I don't know everything, unlike you seem to be, hense the comment.

Nothing is proven about these diseases yet you bring up quotes and accept them as pure fact, and rather than taking my perfectly reasonable explanation on board you would rather insult me and boost your ego by saying flat out you know more than me. YOU are the one here who is assuming to know all, because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong!

My age has nothing to do with your arrogance and undeniabled perfect knowledge about all things reptile. :rolleyes:
 
Haha you state this SO much better than how I stated it (well TRIED anyways :lol: I think I have some form of dyslexia!:lol:)... And I was thinking too, how can you be SO sure, HR, that it IS infact airborne? Or are you just assuming that it is as you cannot think of any other way it could have got to the other animals? Did you quarantine like becs said? i.e. shower and change ur clothes before and after entering and dealing with each room and animal? So far it is only you (that I know of anyways) who it has apparently been transmitted to other snakes via the air... And you don't even know yet for certain that you are dealing with this disease... Do you know of any other cases that it has been proven to be transmitted airborne? You may not even be dealing with either of these diseases! Maybe you should wait til the vets are done and conclusive tests have been done and you know for absolute certain that it is actually one of these diseases or not these at all before you go stating that "it is almost certain this is the (only) way IBD/OPMV are transmitted"... (Yes, yes, I know, probabilities, probabilities, but for a court case, you need FACTS, and you ARE trying to build a potential case from what I last heard/read) Sorry, I'm just a bit sceptical when nothing has been 100% proven yet... When the results come back, and they show to be 100% conclusive, let us know... Try not to assume and jump to conclusions so much JUST yet...like others have said, and be patient and wait for the vets to finish ;)


It will be near impossible to get an accurate diagnosis of either of these deseases as
there are no testing methods or facilities available in Australia.
At best after autopsy all that could be given is an educated guess! Hardly 100% accurate
 
Now what was the point of that giant copy and paste? A simple link would have sufficed, and i dare say majority will just skip over that info.

I will ask again, did you quarantine as i said, and do you argue that there was no possibility that you could have brought the disease home from the vets?

edit (also, did you read who is credited in the references at the bottom , kind of ironic ;) )
 
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