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Keepers are like you wrote very fragmented and also very apathetic with regards to this topic as well as a lot of others,take the mandatory NSW enclosure size as an example.The NRKA,despite the good intentions of those behind it never got off the ground,mores the pity.

Too many keepers with too many individual agendas not to mention egos seem to stand in the way.

Personally I would love to see a national body set up with representatives coming from each state perhaps elected by members of all the local herp societies from around the country.

I agree and as seen from the NRKA episode/the over looking of good advice, we need a better voice with an association of 1000's members registered to get things heard and respected via the greater good. Just look at the unions power these days.

This WILL be the only way we can and will be acknowledged.
 
I'd chuck in 10 bucks, I'd even make it 15 if I get a sticker out of it :) Are you planning on doing something about it or are you just asking? I think it would be a good idea if it was run by experienced people and helped out with problems like the one in wa that has been spoken about.
 
I wonder if there needs to be more fiscal reality. $10 would cover the cost of processing membership but not much more. I understand that we dont want to inhibit membership by setting the bar too high but realisticly we need a strong financial base as well as membership base. I would like to see the ability to engauge a professional lobbyist , which costs money, So many organisations fail because they are dependant upon voluntary labour. I would suggest a tiered membership of say $10 for base membership and then say $50 for advanced membership, after all licencing costs more than that in many states.
 
im more then happy to put in my 10 bucks. Im with wokka on the $50 advanced membership.
 
Thanks again Gavin for putting your thought-provoking ideas forward on this forum. This is such a difficult question to debate - the needs we as a group have, and the contributions we can make, not only to herpetoCULTURE, but to herpetOLOGY in general vs the variation in state laws (many are demonstrably stupid...) and the need to streamline and modernise the thinking within the various state bureaucracies. A large part of the problem we face now is bureaucratic resistance to the notion (it's now probably more a fact!) that our fauna is becoming commodified, ie, a tradeable asset. This is quite distasteful to many of the old-schoolers in the management authorities, despite it being perhaps the only way some species will survive in the long term. You just hyave to look at the head-in-the-sand attitude of the WA bureaucrats when anticipating the advance of the Cane Toad into WA - you cannot take protected fauna despite the fact that it's going to die if you don't... Sure, you'll get exploiters creaming a bit off the top at the beginning, but if the ultimate aim is to prevent the loss of species forever, and the aim is achieved, who bloody-well cares??? Back in 2004, I pulled the RSP file from CALM under FOI, and it made interesting reading. CALM simply ignored the early correspondence from JW, until the Minister was contacted and forced the beginning of dialogue... which lead to the situation we have seen unfold with this species. In the file, John mentions that he believed that within 10 years of the first breedings, the RSP would be a $200 snake. He wasn't far off the mark, despite his prophecy sounding (to me!) far fetched. Bear in mind that this was a species completely unknown to science until 1979-80, and one which took him many trips to secure the 5 individuals that have got the species to where it is in captivity today. This is a fine example of what an individual who has tenacity, knowledge and resouces can do for a species which may be very vulnerable to even minor changes in its habitat. It looks as though Gavin is on a similar trajectory with the Oenpelli, and as one who has watched the RSP story unfold, I will be thrilled to see developments with this species...

Those three qualities - tenacity, knowledge and resources - are major requirements any national body will need to interact fruitfully with the state and federal bodies across the country, and I believe that tenacity is critical. Elitism and downright cynicism (anybody interested in "exploiting" wildlife is likely have a criminal intent) is rife in the state bodies - the generalised belief that amateur keepers know nothing and cannot contribute meaningfully to the conservation debate often kills dialogue before it has a chance to start. Reflecting on our work in WA, it was only a kick up the backside from 2 consecutive Ministers (Lib and Lab) which got us past the starting gate - where CALM had kept us for a number of years. In some jurisdictions, we may have to wait until those carrying the established negative values retire or move on, if political pressure can't be brought to bear. Hence the need for tenacity. But we also need to increase our influence in those bureaucracies, to prevent or reduce the idealogical "trickle-down" effect which is prevalent in those organisations. A professional lobbyist sounds like a very good idea to me.

The range of skills and breadth of knowledge that serious herp keepers can bring to the table in this country is potentially enormous, it can (and should) certainly be harnessed to prevent total extinctions where it is likely this may happen. It is a resource not recognised by blinkered and uncooperative bureaucracies. For me this is a source of continual frustration...

Having said all that, many of our problems come from within our own ranks, and serve only to enhance the cynicism within government ranks - the "anything goes" mentality - mixed breedings, the urgent need we have for the designer snakes and morphs so obviously first bred overseas etc, etc, add a lot of negative noise to the serious debate we need to have with wildlife authorities.

The question is - how do we cut through that crap and establish a sensible dialogue...?

Jamie
 
Yes, there is a wide variety of views in the reptile "world". We have many different opinions and they are frequently conflicting.

However, the issue for now is to simply get a structure up and running. Differences can be debated down the track, but we will get nowhere if we start by squabbling over them now. Plenty of time for that later on. :)

We need a starting group to get things rolling, a process to work towards getting agreements from the various herp societies, a proposed body, a basic constitution, an agreed number of representatives and a timeline for bringing it all together.

And yes, I know that is a much larger task than it may sound.
 
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$10.00 seems a cheap price for our voices to be heard,:D

I'd also keep the fee to something like $10, at least in the short term.

It's more important to be representing a substantial proportion of the herpers from around the country. Numbers bring clout. So too does money, but I reckon numbers are more important, at least over the first few years.

Many people would give it a miss if it is a higher amount.
 
There are probably 100,000 potential members out there, maybe 200,000, with an interest in reptiles. If we get 10% of them financially involved that would be $100,000. Is that enough?
 
...So question five is simple!
Can we put aside our many differences and fight for our right to keep and conserve reptiles?
We would need to put our hand in our pocket for, say, $10.00 each year, in order to put together a strong Australia wide group that can deal directly with ministers and Governments to address the many problems that we keep raising on forums like this. With all of you we can make a difference!...
I think we can put aside our differences and join together as one representative body.
This needs to happen and thank you for taking the initiative to start discussions such as this Gavin.
I'd be happy to contribute financially and in any other way that I can to support such an initiative.
 
Can we put aside our many differences and fight for our right to keep and conserve reptiles?

YES!
Surely we can. I have enjoyed having native reptiles in my home for over 20 years now. In my opinion having national representation for keepers is a must & the biggest change that needs to happen in this hobby/industry.

We are all about to vote for a political party, doesn't mean we agree with 100% of their opinions.
I'm part of a union, again I don't agree 100% of the time.

It would finally give us all a voice.

If there are intelligent & respected individuals offering their time to get this off the ground we would be fools to not encourage them!

Gavin & Greg, you have my support 100% of the way- good luck!

Andrew
 
Hi Gavin,

Certainly there must be a national body. It needs to be elected. For too long this industry has been curtailed by red tape that is simply not required. If for instance all state based systems were abolished and a national system implemented so much cr@p could be eliminated.

Both commercially and privately I would be a member of such an organization, give me a bank account in which to place a deposit!

Cheers,
Scott Eipper
 
I believe the concept is a good one and would happily contribute financially. It has always seemed ridiculous to me that the experts don't seem to have a voice. The additional fact that any of us can so readily shoot holes in the current government management systems in place and clearly demonstrate why they don't work, are inconsistent and achieve nothing is equally ridiculous.

Having recently managed an account and fund raising exercise for an altruistic purpose, I learnt a great deal about people, money and "best intentions". Any fund raising for a purpose like this must be recurring. There would be little point raising enough money to get the ball rolling and then struggling to keep things moving 12 months later (or some other time in the future). People who intend to contribute may well mean to....but many will never get there. Particularly on a recurring basis. As such my first suggestion would be rather than seeking $10 deposits, seek $1 (or whatever amount you choose) weekly deposits set up as a direct debit right from the start. Not only will this raise more money, but it will be ongoing. Once the form is completed once, everyone forgets about it as it's an insignificant amount and the money keeps coming in.

I've also come to realise that for many, something is expected in return. The knowledge that they are funding a group aimed to benefit the hobby will be enough for some, but not everyone. I would suggest incorporating the payment into other ventures (a subscription, newsletter, subsidies from supportive organisations etc).


Additionally I would aim to seek some small percentage of funds from any other relevant organisation and/or the various societies (AHS etc) that are already successfully securing payment. ie. perhaps add a dollar to the cost of membership, zoo entry or whatever and contribute these funds to this project. Ideally over time the cost could be incorporated into the licencing costs and the whole thing would be self-sufficient. Or better yet the various government agencies can just recruit the same guys we want representing us to work for them and there will be no need for any of this. Can't really see that one happening..

This is all just my view of the situation and I'm sure many will view it differently. It probably also seems like I'm getting ahead of myself with something that is just a proposal at the moment and maybe I am. But I believe if these things are considered early and where possible implemented at the outset it will increase the chance of success and be of greater benefit down the track.
 
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Hey Striker. Break it down into chunks. People digest it better that way, No offence,
 
i'm happy to chuck in $50, our reptiles need a voice and us keepers who have the reptiles best interests at heart should be that voice not someone behind a desk pushing paper that does not even own a reptile.
 
Hey Striker. Break it down into chunks. People digest it better that way, No offence,

yeah I know. Its driving me nuts. For some reason on this website when I hit enter to move down a line it won't let me.

It's my computer I think cause it works on my phone. Any suggestions? I've broken it up using my phone for now.
 
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yeah I know. Its driving me nuts. For some reason on this website when I hit enter to move down a line it won't let me.

It's my computer I think cause it works on my phone. Any suggestions? I've broken it up using my phone for now.

It's a known issue one of the many known issues with Internet Explorer 10. The fix is to either turn off the WYSIWYG editor, or use a different browser. I recommend Google Chrome, but Firefox (or similar) will work just as well.
 
Or Federal Australian Reptile Keepers Union.........:lol:

LOL



G'day Gav,
Basically you are talking about creating a Union (a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose), with great power comes great responsibility and power corrupts absolutely!

Safe guards must be set in place to insure no corruption of the said organisation, as shown recently with the Unions backing political parties using their members contributions without their members permission to do so, running their own political/personnel agendas etc. as shown with the clerks who set up the Code of practice for the private keeping of reptiles who now have more lucrative employment. From what I understand they just ignored the information provided (more than a hundred years of herpetology experience!!) and run with their own animal welfare agendas (power corrupts absolutely)!

For example said organisation should not make any decision with out a 70-80% majority vote from all members, all finances, decisions etc. should be documented and transparent for all members to view.

If this could be achieved I would happily contribute $10.00 a year.
 
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Yellowbeard, I dare say the name suggested by Jedi was more to do with it's acronym than anything else
 
yeah I know. Its driving me nuts. For some reason on this website when I hit enter to move down a line it won't let me.

It's my computer I think cause it works on my phone. Any suggestions? I've broken it up using my phone for now.

When making a quick reply: in the tool bar click "switch editor to source mode" (its the far left button)
then
you
create
a
new line :)
 
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