Reptile Emotions Debate

[hrafna]

Anyone who wants an unbiased, rational explanation of the world. Don't take offence (that isn't how it was meant) but we, as irrational, emotional creatures tend to label what we don't understand in ways that we do because it is more comfortable

stolen from the net about emotion in animals.
There is no scientific consensus on emotion in animals, that is, what emotions certain species of animals, including humans, feel. The debate concerns primarily mammals and birds, although emotions have also been postulated for other vertebrates and even for some invertebrates.
Animal lovers, scientists, philosophers, and others who interact with animals, have suggested answers but the core question has proven difficult to answer since animals cannot speak of their experience. Society recognizes that animals can feel pain, as demonstrated by the criminalization of animal cruelty. Animal expressions of apparent pleasure are ambiguous as to whether this is emotion, or simply innate responses, perhaps for approval or other hard-wired cues. The ambiguity is a source of controversy as there is no certainty which views, if any, reflect reality. That said, extreme behaviourists would say that human "feeling" is also merely a hard-wired response to external stimuli.

 

[saximus]

Wow that's an awesome explanation! Can I have the link? Although if science hasn't come up with the answers yet, I feel we are out of our league trying to justify our positions on this debate

 

[longqi]

Not at all Saximus
We are definitely not out of our league here
Scientists still argue about this so they must really have no way of measuring it??
So who better to discus this topic than reptile keepers??

 

[Kyro]

yes a definition would be needed. i think that hunting is an instinct, being hungry i feel is debatable, stress is def an emotion, so yes it all does come down to what we as an individual would define it all as!


your last point could also be looked at as a breeding partner finding something wrong with a partner and thus no longer a suitable mate? which is an instinctual response from many animals.

When talking about reptiles I think stress is a reaction to certain circumstances, not an emotion.
Feeling hungry is instinct for survival as is hunting to get rid of the hunger.

 

[Tristan]

Wolves and other pack animals seem to show affection for other pack members??
Would this have any useful purpose??

yes that's all related to the pecking order of the pack, and gaining favor etc with the higher ups, so this can lead to a discussion about wolves being self aware enough to be motivated by self gain

as for a definition on emotion i think that's going to be hard, at the end of the day what you feel be it emotion or instinct is biochemical reactions,and neurons firing in the brain, depending on what area of the brain is being stimulated will yield different emotions.

baser instincts from the amygdala such as eat, sleep, reproduce etc these instincts are also associated with emotion as the emotion motivates you to act, snakes lack a prefrontal cortex so lack the ability for deeper more complex instincts/emotion but they do have a good capacity for learning such as the ability to learn a regular feeding pattern.

so I'm generally of the opinion that most reptiles can feel/express emotion on a basic level but i by no means expect them to be able to express complex things such as empathy and jealousy etc

 

[splat868]

It could be argued that some emotions are needed for survival.

The abilty to recognise danger produces fear, which then produces adrenalyn.

Adrenalyn enables the animal to have that extra burst of speed for fight or flight.

Fear is classed as an emtion in humans, and yet it is used for the same thing that it is used for in animals, including reptiles.

 

[Cockney_Red]

Instinct and emotion, completely different, IMO...I have yet to witness emotion in my worms...

 

[mje772003]

I think they do have emotions but it is a bond that develops over time

 

[fugawi]

When I stroke my beardies behind the head they slowly close their eyes after a few strokes as if "Yeah, thats goooooood". I would call that an emotional response.

 

[saximus]

When I stroke my beardies behind the head they slowly close their eyes after a few strokes as if "Yeah, thats goooooood". I would call that an emotional response.

Perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. Don't understand the action so assign something to it that we can understand

 

[redlittlejim]

i think they can feel them, when i seperate my two waters, they seem to get sad or lonely (might be stress) but if they get stressed hen they must feel something

 

[longqi]

So if a human closes its eyes and snuggles into your hand when you stroke it that is evidence of an emotion???
But if a beardie etc does it we cannot also call that evidence of emotion???

 

[saximus]

Haha yep

 

[redlittlejim]

i love to snuggle with my eyes closed, but my wife tells me im an emotionless a$$.

longqi i love all your threads, if not informaive they are always interesting. i must visit next time im in bali

 

[Defective]

i definitely vote yes for emotion, based purely on the fact that i have recently witnessed jealousy behaviour in my beardie. i got keiko and she curled up and went to sleep in the palm of my hand, once i've put her back yoda won't come near me and goes and sulks like a jealous little child. BUT if i handle him first he refuses to go back into his enclosure and will jump onto my shirt and dig his claws into my chest. he loathes water and loves a cuddle in bed with mum (me)

 

[fugawi]

Scratch a dogs tummy and tell me it isn't enjoying it........a dog will deliberately lay down to have its belly rubbed, a cat will push its cheek against your hand etc

 

[Elapidae1]

Maybe I could agree there is a fine line between instinct and some form of base emotion, but the people who believe their reptiles feel love and jealousy need to get of the herbs.

 

[Defective]

steve1 you haven't seen or experienced the way my dragon acts so don't tell me that animals don't get jealous

 

[saximus]

Where is Jamie when we need him?

 

[kawasakirider]

Should put a pole on this thread, too.

Yes
No
I don't know

Personally, I'd click IDK, as I haven't owned anything long enough to really observe anything that in depth. The two that I handle are indifferent to being handled, and don't rush back into their enclosure when they have the chance, so they can develop a sense of security.

I know they can be fearful, obviously this is a survival instinct, but it's an emotion, is it not?