Reptile Emotions Debate

[GeckPhotographer]

I think if I were to say humans had emotions than I would have to say also that reptiles have emotions. If I were to say humans do not emotions I would thus say reptiles do not have emotions. Not to mention I will upset people by defining instinct and emotion as synonymous in meaning, yet separated by human bias and want to be above animals.

This is not as simple as it seems. All human responses are controlled by some for of chemical reaction in the brain. All reptile response are similarly controlled by reactions in the brain. If we separate instinct and emotion based on these reactions we are really separating emotion and instinct on what a response is elicited by. So to run from a predator is an instinct. To fear irrationally or when not faced with something perceived as a threat is an emotion. It is as far as I see impossible to see if a reptile can fear irrationally or when not faced with something it perceives as a threat. Really I look at this the same way I look at humans separating themselves as 'not animals'.

The only thing I can fully say with surety is that if humans define emotions based on a threshold where only responses 'this complex' or 'this powerful' are emotions than never will humans be able to prove any animal as our emotional equal without being able to experience that animal from its perspective. Not to mention we may not even be able to include some individuals of our own species through this point of view.

 

[longqi]

Some great replies coming in here
Devils advocate has not really been required as yet so I wont need to say anything at this point

 

[Darkhorse]

i definitely vote yes for emotion, based purely on the fact that i have recently witnessed jealousy behaviour in my beardie. i got keiko and she curled up and went to sleep in the palm of my hand, once i've put her back yoda won't come near me and goes and sulks like a jealous little child. BUT if i handle him first he refuses to go back into his enclosure and will jump onto my shirt and dig his claws into my chest. he loathes water and loves a cuddle in bed with mum (me)

Hey Lambert... couldn't your beardie just be acting in self preservation (instinct) and not want to go near you after you have been holding your snake because you smell of snake which he could construe as a predator? Couldn't he be trying to avoid a bath as he would not be bathed in the wild and therefore may instinctually avoid it to prevent death by drowning? And couldn't he just see you in your bed as an opportunity to warm himself?

Being human and loving our pets it's hard not to be anthropomorphic!

 

[xxMelissaxx]

based purely on the fact that i have recently witnessed jealousy behaviour in my beardie. i got keiko and she curled up and went to sleep in the palm of my hand, once i've put her back yoda won't come near me and goes and sulks like a jealous little child.

The fact that you assume this is jealousy clearly demonstrates that you are not thinking logically, and jump to the conclusion that satisfies you - that your animals have a deep love for you.

Have you not thought that perhaps your dragon simply has a natural aversion to the scent of your python? How on Earth would you logically justify your conclusion that he is jealous of your python?

People that are missing something and need to delude themselves into believing that their animals care for them and become jealous over them should keep something other than reptiles, or perhaps work on their relationships with humans.

 

[Elapidae1]

steve1 you haven't seen or experienced the way my dragon acts so don't tell me that animals don't get jealous

Have you ever considered that maybe your dragon can pick up the scent of your Stimmie.

Your Dragon is not jealous, how can it be when it doesn't even have the ability to percieve jealousy. You percieve the dragon is jealous because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy that your reptiles would get jealous over who is getting more attention from you. This is the whole problem with this particular debate, HUMAN EMOTION interfering with logic.

DOH ditto to Melissa.

 

[longqi]

Devils Advocate time

Even though Lambert cannot definitively prove that his beardie gets jealous, can anyone prove that it doesnt??

 

[kawasakirider]

How on Earth would you logically justify your conclusion that he is jealous of your python?

I lol'd hard.

In regards to this:

delude themselves into believing that their animals care for them

I disagree, if you're talking about animals in general. Reptiles I can't speak for, but I can say I'm inclined to agree. But I believe dogs develop a strong bond with their owners.

 

[GeckPhotographer]

People that are missing something and need to delude themselves into believing that their animals care for them and become jealous over them should keep something other than reptiles, or perhaps work on their relationships with humans.

That is rude, just because he may think his animal is jealous of him? Whether this is logical or not? If soemone cares for their reptiles well, cares about there reptiles and does not come on line spitting venom at another keeper than why should you say they are a bad reptile keeper simply because your perception they have said one illogical thing?
This I think is a true show of what is not logical, does this then mean you have yourself been hypocritical and should not keep reptiles? (While this question was rhetorical I will answer in my opinion it does not and you have the same right to keep your reptiles as long as you look after them as you should give Lambert.)

 

[saximus]

KR I think a lot of people would agree about dogs and cats etc. but this debate is more concerned with reptiles so I tend to agree with that statement

 

[kawasakirider]

KR I think a lot of people would agree about dogs and cats etc. but this debate is more concerned with reptiles so I tend to agree with that statement

Yeah, fair enough. I said I was partial to agree, if it was aimed at reptiles.

I haven't owned any long enough to decide for myself, though. Our male jungle, Georgie, he's happy no matter where he is or who's holding him, so I don't think he has any emotions toward humans, lol.

Better edit your post, lambert will be all over it.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

I disagree, if you're talking about animals in general. Reptiles I can't speak for, but I can say I'm inclined to agree.

Let me correct myself: I was referring to snakes in particular. I shall be more careful with my wording. Apologies for the confusion.

 

[kawasakirider]

That's an awesome DP. Is it an MD? Obviously he/she is fairly calm around humans.

 

[Kyro]

I don't think comparing reptiles to dog's, cat's etc is a good comparison at all. They are mammals & I think it's fairly obvious that they are far more intelligent than your average bearded dragon:lol:

beaten by several on the ball people with that point

 

[kawasakirider]

Let me correct myself: I was referring to snakes in particular. I shall be more careful with my wording. Apologies for the confusion.

No need to apologise, I was just checking.

 

[GeckPhotographer]

Is grammar the most important part of this discussion? Unless something legitimately does not make sense I think it most preferable that the debate stays off the grammar topic, and I am sure at least a few others would agree.

 

[longqi]

There are some really thought provoking things coming out here
So please try to keep it gentle or they might close the thread

Everyone has different opinions and thats very very cool

 

[redlittlejim]

now back on topic, my olive and my coastal both will leave my wife and come to me if we are sitting on the grass outside... i handle them 80% of the time and so when i go walks with them they tend to stay close to me...
also my boyd dragon recently lost two others from his enclosure and now seems to sulk. nothing has changed except i have removed two boyds that where in his enclosure for the past 6months. this shows signs of lonilyness?

 

[xxMelissaxx]

That is rude, just because he may think his animal is jealous of him? Whether this is logical or not? If soemone cares for their reptiles well, cares about there reptiles and does not come on line spitting venom at another keeper than why should you say they are a bad reptile keeper simply because your perception they have said one illogical thing?
This I think is a true show of what is not logical, does this then mean you have yourself been hypocritical and should not keep reptiles? (While this question was rhetorical I will answer in my opinion it does not and you have the same right to keep your reptiles as long as you look after them as you should give Lambert.)

I did not intend to come across as rude or nasty.

I suggested that people that need to get something in return from their animals, such as love and attachment should keep animals that have the ability to exhibit this behaviour - the keeper would then get what they need from their animals and would likely be more satisfied.

Also, please refrain from putting words in my mouth - at no point did I call anyone a "bad reptile keeper," or even anything similar.

You have totally misunderstood my post. I was in no way being hypocritical either, and I am indeed suited to keeping reptiles - I am content with the fact that my reptiles would likely not notice if they never came in contact with me again as long as they were being fed still. They would not miss me, mourn the loss or perhaps even notice my absence. Therefore, reptiles suit me perfectly. If I needed love from animals, I'd get a dog.

 

[redlittlejim]

Lmao.

That's an awesome DP. Is it an MD? Obviously he/she is fairly calm around humans.

Coastal LOVES ME!!!! you know as in an emotion doesnt like others touching its face but likes to rest its face on my fingers

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Just a thought, how many of the posters on here have actually done any reading on the cognitive abilities of reptiles? Even taken a quick look at the structure of a snake's brain? After reading the thread, I assume that not many have. I strongly suggest some light reading into the subject - you might find it interesting and informative.

Without having done any research, I feel many of the opinions here are purely based on an illogical perception of very simple behaviours that are exhibited by relatively simple animals.