Reptile Emotions Debate

[longqi]

^^^^^ Good point about the structure of a reptiles brain

But can a reptiles brain be measured by our present knowledge of reptiles??

 

[Renenet]

Just a thought, how many of the posters on here have actually done any reading on the cognitive abilities of reptiles? Even taken a quick look at the structure of a snake's brain?

You mentioned some studies that had been done earlier on emotion (or otherwise) in reptiles. I'd love to read them (and maybe others would too). Do you have links or titles?

Thanks,
Renenet

 

[saximus]

I don't see why it couldn't. We understand what parts of the brain are generally responsible for what actions and can see whether the parts required for what some refer to as emotion are existent

 

[xxMelissaxx]

^^^^^ Good point about the structure of a reptiles brain

But can a reptiles brain be measured by our present knowledge of reptiles??

Not entirely but adequately I believe. Whilst there is much that remains unknown to us, the structures and functions of the brain have been widely researched.

Logically, I feel the best we can do in order to understand our animals is to take what little we do definitely know, and go by that rather than making baseless assumptions about the behaviours in question.

Over the years, I have seen my reptiles do many things. Whilst I have not been able to understand the reasons for all, I have come up with many possible explanations for each that are more rational and likely than the possibility that they feel love or an attachment to me as their keeper.

 

[sookie]

I can't stay outta this.My beardie is very clever,he has problem solved his way to the kitchen table a few times.He has helped himself to the delights there upon,he knows what to look for.he knows that certain behaviour will not be tolerated and he knows when he's in trouble.he knows the 2 dogs won't hurt him and he enjoys their company,because he seeks them out.He lets me know what he feels lke for dinner with gestures,because he knows what container holds what bugs.And i know when he's is peeved at me because he digs his claws into his wall or branch and won't budge,or if i have done a really bad thing,he won't look at me.When i come home with a ton of shopping and the dogs are jumping about,some one else is in their tank jumping about waiting for whatever treat i bought him home too.Move him from HIS tank and you will see an enormous hissy fit,complete with throwing himself on the ground.Soon as he comes out and onto me he comes up for kisses,he has his fav snuggle spots on me,bed and on the passenger seat in the car.No one else can turn him into 'pancake lizard' when giving him loves,only for me.I raised him inside my left bra cup,then a t-shirt pocket ans now he is my constant companion.
Please don't rain on my parade,this is how i like to veiw our relationship.......and i will never change.:lol:

 

[kawasakirider]

I don't see why it couldn't. We understand what parts of the brain are generally responsible for what actions and can see whether the parts required for what some refer to as emotion are existent

It would be interesting (if possible) to put an array of reptiles in an MRI machine, and stimulate them in different ways, food, fear (obviously try to stimulate it in a minimal way, where the animal's not gunna have a heart attack, lol) etc. You could then do the same for various mammals.

It would also be interesting to measure the brain function of reptiles that have been housed together for life, especially ones that are known to enjoy the company of another (I think it's the blue tongue?) in a situation where both are put in an MRI machine, and one was taken away.

I guess it would be hard to measure them without them being still.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

You mentioned some studies that had been done earlier on emotion (or otherwise) in reptiles. I'd love to read them (and maybe others would too). Do you have links or titles?

Thanks,
Renenet

I have PMed some to a few members on here before, and I might have posted in previous threads - I'll scan through and have a look.

Otherwise, I'm at work at the moment so will have to take a look through my material when I get home.

I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity

 

[kawasakirider]

I have PMed some to a few members on here before, and I might have posted in previous threads - I'll scan through and have a look.

Otherwise, I'm at work at the moment so will have to take a look through my material when I get home.

I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity

I'm keen. So keen, in fact, that my uni assignments are getting pushed to the "later on" basket, due to me craving more info on snakes.

 

[longqi]

It would be interesting (if possible) to put an array of reptiles in an MRI machine, and stimulate them in different ways, food, fear (obviously try to stimulate it in a minimal way, where the animal's not gunna have a heart attack, lol) etc. You could then do the same for various mammals.

It would also be interesting to measure the brain function of reptiles that have been housed together for life, especially ones that are known to enjoy the company of another (I think it's the blue tongue?) in a situation where both are put in an MRI machine, and one was taken away.

I guess it would be hard to measure them without them being still.

Perhaps also interesting to try and read a reptiles brain when that reptile had been treated as part of a human family rather than a reptile that had had little or no human interaction???

 

[kawasakirider]

Perhaps also interesting to try and read a reptiles brain when that reptile had been treated as part of a human family rather than a reptile that had had little or no human interaction???

That would be excellent, too.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Perhaps also interesting to try and read a reptiles brain when that reptile had been treated as part of a human family rather than a reptile that had had little or no human interaction???

Quite true and admittedly, I have not come across any such studies. There are many on captive animals, but the level of human interaction was not often discussed in detail as I recall.

However, as I feel that this behaviour is not possible in snakes, I do not think such studies would yield results different than those already published. A level of familiarity may be observed but in terms of love and attachment, I think it would prove futile.

 

[redlittlejim]

PM me as well please. very keen on doing a bit or research.

Quite true and admittedly, I have not come across any such studies. There are many on captive animals, but the level of human interaction was not often discussed in detail as I recall.

However, as I feel that this behaviour is not possible in snakes, I do not think such studies would yield results different than those already published. A level of familiarity may be observed but in terms of love and attachment, I think it would prove futile.

how would it show emotions such as love etc if it doesnt have the chance to build it with the human interaction?? that is kind of the main way it would show the emotion dont you think?

 

[kawasakirider]

However, as I feel that this behaviour is not possible in snakes, I do not think such studies would yield results different than those already published.

I think it's naive to discount the possibility of a discovery being made, whether it's likely or not. If we all felt like that, cancer and AIDS would probably be known as the work of demons and impossible to cure, yet we still try.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

I think it's naive to discount the possibility of a discovery being made, whether it's likely or not. If we all felt like that, cancer and AIDS would probably be known as the work of demons and impossible to cure, yet we still try.

I am basing my opinions on all the knowledge and fact we have available at present. There have been many studies conducted on the cognitive abilities of reptiles, and all evidence points to the fact that snakes do not have the ability to form meaningful relationships with their keepers.

I will believe this until the day that something pops up that gives me a reason to think otherwise - I don't think that's naive at all.

Also, not intending to be rude, however, your comparison with cancer and AIDS is completely and utterly irrelevant.

how would it show emotions such as love etc if it doesnt have the chance to build it with the human interaction?? that is kind of the main way it would show the emotion dont you think?

The studies are primarily focused on the cognitive abilities of reptiles and similar. If an animal is not able to learn anything at a complex enough level, then it is unable to form an attachment or a love for a keeper.

 

[redlittlejim]

a reptiles instinct is based on survival if they were to realize you are the key to their survival then they will trust you possibly even attach themselves to you. Do you think this is the "love" or "emotions" people think they are recieving?
i really had never seen a lizard/snake or reptile of any species show any type of affection that wasn't a learned trait or an act of survival until i started to have favourites... as i said about olive and coastal. both seem to show affection

 

[Elapidae1]

Sookie your last sentence says it all.

"Please don't rain on my parade,this is how i like to veiw our relationship.......and i will never change.:lol: "

 

[xxMelissaxx]

a reptiles instinct is based on survival if they were to realize you are the key to their survival then they will trust you possibly even attach themselves to you. Do you think this is the "love" or "emotions" people think they are recieving?

I can see how that would make sense, however, I do not believe that snakes are able to come to this conclusion in the first place, and I certainly don't think they have the ability to act towards it.

 

[Elapidae1]

Melissa, Do you believe that Reptiles can recognise an individual/keeper.

 

[saximus]

I know you asked Melissa but I think they would get to recognise smells so could possibly recognise you from your smell

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Melissa, Do you believe that Reptiles can recognise an individual/keeper.

I am unsure, but I am not discounting it. Perhaps on a certain level they recognise recurring stimuli that is unique to the keeper? This does not necessarily mean that they recognise the keeper as a person, or the key to their survival etc.