Reptile Emotions Debate

[kawasakirider]

I am basing my opinions on all the knowledge and fact we have available at present.

I will believe this until the day that something pops up that gives me a reason to think otherwise - I don't think that's naive at all.

Also, not intending to be rude, however, your comparison with cancer and AIDS is completely and utterly irrelevant.
.

I highlighted the first part of your post.

AIDS and Cancer have nothing to do with the debate, but the point I was making is that you should never stop questioning, and experimenting, because even if it is unlikely, you never know unless you have a crack. So the comment wasn't irrelevant, it was just misconstrued.

I have also said that I'm inclined to agree with you, because I haven't seen anything to make me think otherwise. But until every option has been exhausted, no one can definitively come to a conclusion.

Please don't think I'm being rude.

 

[longqi]

Wasnt all human instinct once based on survival??

 

[Elapidae1]

If they can recognise recurring stimuly are they able to associate it with the source?

 

[saximus]

Wasnt all human instinct once based on survival??

In a way I'm inclined to believe it still is. All of our morals come from what is required for communal groups to work. A major contributor to that is our ability for empathy which I think helps us form emotions. Or I could just be talking crap...

 

[redlittlejim]

would be interesting to see if the recognise keepers etc... in my mind, i have no doubt that they do. as i can be showing my snakes to others and they will actively try and move back to me. or if place them on the grass they will come to me every single time rather than my wife. however, whether this is a affection thing or they can just smell me as there main handler and therefore they feel more secure with me instead of an unkknown i am unsure. may try a few test with y wife wearing my clothes etc and i wear hers and see if they go to her or me....
so i am sure they can recognise individuals (or atleast someone who they are regularly with) but i am totally unusure to the emotion side.

 

[kawasakirider]

would be interesting to see if the recognise keepers etc... in my mind, i have no doubt that they do. as i can be showing my snakes to others and they will actively try and move back to me. or if place them on the grass they will come to me every single time rather than my wife. however, whether this is a affection thing or they can just smell me as there main handler and therefore they feel more secure with me instead of an unkknown i am unsure. may try a few test with y wife wearing my clothes etc and i wear hers and see if they go to her or me....
so i am sure they can recognise individuals (or atleast someone who they are regularly with) but i am totally unusure to the emotion side.

Lol, just an excuse to cross dress, eh? Haha

If you do this, post results. Hold the pics, though. I'm not keen on those

 

[xxMelissaxx]

If they can recognise recurring stimuly are they able to associate it with the source?

In this instance I don't think so, no - not that level of learning.

There would be quite a lot involved in that. I do not think snakes are able to connect a familiar stimuli with the source, recognise the connection and identify the image of the keeper as that source, store all this information and then be able to recall it at a later date. That's obviously a simplified and possibly inaccurate run-down of things, but you get the idea

 

[redlittlejim]

consider operation cross dress for the good of APS in action tomorrow. i will do the test for 7 days in a row. twice a day. shall i post on this thread or a new thread?

 

[longqi]

Has anyone known a reptile that would only feed from its handler??

This thread is fine redjim
but not too many pictures of cheesy grins please

 

[grimbeny]

I think its a boring question. The only issue that is up for debate is what emotion means. We know animals feel pain, they feel pleasure, satisfaction, hunger, many of the things humans feel. These things have been and can be tested scientifically. We know many animals have rather good memories etc. But we know animals cant "think" in the way that we call thinking, for that you need language. So depending on where you define the borders of the term emotion decides wether you can say animals have them or not.

 

[redlittlejim]

Has anyone known a reptile that would only feed from its handler??

This thread is fine redjim
but not too many pictures of cheesy grins please

how can i not do a cheesy grin when im cross dressing?

 

[JoygasmPie]

To be honest, I think its unfair to compare human emotion to reptile emotion. We are social animals and need emotional attachment.
Most reptiles are solitary. It seems pointless to feel emotions such as we do, and if they did feel them they would probably end up very depressed and lonely.
But who is to say they don't feel them at all, we can't get inside their head. I'm sure there are plenty of situations that may show frustration and anger. They may even feel emotions that humans don't.

 

[splat868]

I am unsure, but I am not discounting it. Perhaps on a certain level they recognise recurring stimuli that is unique to the keeper? This does not necessarily mean that they recognise the keeper as a person, or the key to their survival etc.

Hi Melissa,

I am always looking for more studies to read on reptiles.

I would greatly appreciate it if you could PM me any info on these studies also.


On recognition of individuals,

I have one particular shingleback who will allow me to handle him as much as I like without any fuss. However as soon as I try to hand him to someone else, or someone else tries to pick him up he will defacate on them, its quite funny really.

Not sure what this means, but I have taken it as recognition of some kind.

 

[Elapidae1]

In this instance I don't think so, no - not that level of learning.

There would be quite a lot involved in that. I do not think snakes are able to connect a familiar stimuli with the source, recognise the connection and identify the image of the keeper as that source, store all this information and then be able to recall it at a later date. That's obviously a simplified and possibly inaccurate run-down of things, but you get the idea

I'm not sure we're quite on the same track, I don't think, for example they will recognise a keepers physical appearance, but maybe associate scent,smell,taste of the keeper with certain things like food or being handled. If a snake was put in a situation where pain was inflicted by a keeper would it begin to associate that keepers scent with pain if the circumstances were continued? Whilst photographing wild Elapids I have noticed that they will often react more strongly to a particular individual, though this could simply be related to body heat.

 

[zuesowns]

My opinion would be yes:

Stress:

tension: (psychology) a state of mental or emotional strain or suspense; "he suffered from fatigue and emotional tension"; "stress is a vasoconstrictor"

The reason I say stress is because i've heard that snakes get stressed from almost every herp keeper...

For snakes to go off food during summer for example would not be instinct as they are opportunistic feeders.

 

[Elapidae1]

I think its a boring question. The only issue that is up for debate is what emotion means. We know animals feel pain, they feel pleasure, satisfaction, hunger, many of the things humans feel. These things have been and can be tested scientifically. We know many animals have rather good memories etc. But we know animals cant "think" in the way that we call thinking, for that you need language. So depending on where you define the borders of the term emotion decides wether you can say animals have them or not.

Some pretty generalized statements in there. To say it is a boring question is rather insulting to the many people who have put the effort in to some well considered replies.
We're not talking about animals in general, but reptiles. Please enlighten us as to how we know reptiles feel pleasure and satisfaction

 

[splat868]

To be honest, I think its unfair to compare human emotion to reptile emotion. We are social animals and need emotional attachment.
Most reptiles are solitary. It seems pointless to feel emotions such as we do, and if they did feel them they would probably end up very depressed and lonely.
But who is to say they don't feel them at all, we can't get inside their head. I'm sure there are plenty of situations that may show frustration and anger. They may even feel emotions that humans don't.

This is true,

and simply illustrates that all emotions, including those of humans are based on what they need to survive and thrive in their given environment and social structure.

There are however species of skink that live in a highly social environment, including cunningham skinks.
What emotions they have, I can't comment on.

I believe though that humans have traditionally tried to place themselves as being totally apart from the animal kindom, this perception is slowly changing thankfully.

Look at the amazing discoveries that have been found in Chimps and other Primates in recent decades.
Their societies, social structures, and emotions have been shown to be very similar to our own in its basic format.
Each emotion that Humans have is born from what we as humans needed to survive, as is every other animal.

 

[lizardmech]

I don't know that you can completely rule it out purely based on brain structure. There's some research into monitors that have suggested mammalian like behavior and that they can do complicated things such as count, identify people, engage in play and plan ahead.

I haven't been able to find a reliable list of brain mass to body mass ratios for reptile species anywhere though so I'm not sure if varanids just have much larger brains.

I don't think they have a good grasp of non-mammal brains in general. Crows, ravens and other corvids seemed to go unnoticed for a while, yet they are now known to be one of the most intelligent animals. As far as I can tell they were initially ignored to some degree in research just because Avian brain structure is different to mammals and was assumed to be inferior.

 

[Elapidae1]

Zuesowns, "mental or emotional strain" I take that as meaning that not all stress is emotional

 

[xxMelissaxx]

I'm not sure we're quite on the same track, I don't think, for example they will recognise a keepers physical appearance, but maybe associate scent,smell,taste of the keeper with certain things like food or being handled. If a snake was put in a situation where pain was inflicted by a keeper would it begin to associate that keepers scent with pain if the circumstances were continued? Whilst photographing wild Elapids I have noticed that they will often react more strongly to a particular individual, though this could simply be related to body heat.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your question.

Perhaps via repetition they could be conditioned to associate stimuli with pain as you described. I am not sure, but I definitely can't say it's impossible. I am still somewhat doubtful as to whether snakes are able to create and recall such associations though. For example, how many instances have been documented of a snake coiled around a heat bulb long enough to inflict serious burns? Or a snake repeatedly rubbing its nose raw on mesh coverings?

With the wild Elapids, they can certainly deem one individual as more of a threat than others, due to any number of reasons. Perhaps that was what was occurring? This does not indicate learning or emotion though, but is certainly interesting and a good example of one of the many aspects of these animals that we are yet to fully understand.