Reptile Emotions Debate

[longqi]

Been some great points and even very different views in the last couple of pages so I think so far a simple yes or no answer is probably not as valid as it was at the start of this thread??

Lizardman
great point about crows etc
And how closely related are reptiles to birds

 

[splat868]

I think its a boring question. The only issue that is up for debate is what emotion means. We know animals feel pain, they feel pleasure, satisfaction, hunger, many of the things humans feel. These things have been and can be tested scientifically. We know many animals have rather good memories etc. But we know animals cant "think" in the way that we call thinking, for that you need language. So depending on where you define the borders of the term emotion decides wether you can say animals have them or not.

What do you define as thinking?

Octopi have excellent problem resolving skills, as do Chimps, and I am sure several other animals.

Its been shown that Chimps and Pack Predators in general have specific tactics and plans when hunting, so clearly they can both Think and communicate.

 

[cement]

No.

'Showing' emotion is a visible facial display.

Not an action.

The closest a reptile gets to 'showing' emotion is yawning, and even thats not because they are tired, but rather a functional action.

 

[longqi]

Cement
I can show emotion by simply giving a hug??
No facial display required

 

[cement]

And I can give a hug without showing emotion!

Is a threat display emotion?

 

[Renenet]

I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity

Thank you, Melissa, for both the PM and the unwarranted compliment. I have an open mind on this question of whether reptiles can feel emotions and would certainly like to check out the evidence that's out there. I don't feel like I know enough to be able to come to a conclusion.

Good point about the size of reptile brains. I've seen diagrams of snake brains. They're shockingly small and would not suggest a capacity for complex emotions. I'd imagine a turtle's or lizard's brain wouldn't be much different. Then again, while being aware of the dangers of anthropomorphising, there are plenty of anecdotal stories of reptiles - particularly of lizards for some curious reason - that appear to display a capacity for emotion. As Melissa pointed out, there are often alternative, more rational reasons for this behaviour. Still... I feel there's enough in it that the debate is not fully settled.

I do believe there are definitely some emotions that are beyond the reach of a reptile - jealousy and love, for example. That's my opinion; others are totally entitled to theirs.

I'll have to do a lot more reading about this topic - when I have time! There's so much more to it than first meets the eye.

 

[JoygasmPie]

Something people should note when making any argument regarding animals:

The Number One Rule: There are always exceptions to the rules.

We may never know all the reasons why they do what they do, what or why they feel what they feel. It may be because they just simply can.

 

[kawasakirider]

No.

'Showing' emotion is a visible facial display.

Not an action.

The closest a reptile gets to 'showing' emotion is yawning, and even thats not because they are tired, but rather a functional action.

What? A facial display is just one way of conveying emotion. Just because something can't convey it, doesn't mean they don't feel it. I was going to point out that a lot of stroke victims can't display anything, but definitely feel emotions. Surely someone would point out that there's no correlation to reptiles, but the point is, just because we can't pick up on their cues, doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

[Elapidae1]

@ Cement, "Is a threat display emotion?" No it's a defensive mechanism.

 

[grimbeny]

What do you define as thinking?

Octopi have excellent problem resolving skills, as do Chimps, and I am sure several other animals.

Its been shown that Chimps and Pack Predators in general have specific tactics and plans when hunting, so clearly they can both Think and communicate.

Again a symantics debate, I would say thinking is not solving problems or processing information but a dialogoue that occurs inside the individuals head.

 

[kawasakirider]

No it's a defensive mechanism

Huh?

 

[Elapidae1]

Huh?

I just edited that

 

[kawasakirider]

I just edited that

Oh ok

 

[dihsmaj]

Dogs feel emotion yet they don't show it with facial expressions.

 

[kawasakirider]

Dogs feel emotion yet they don't show it with facial expressions.

Yeah they do, dogs have facial expressions for sure.

 

[splat868]

Again a symantics debate, I would say thinking is not solving problems or processing information but a dialogoue that occurs inside the individuals head.

hmm,

Surely though if a chimp sees a delicious treat inside a puzzle, in its own way it must think to itself " I want that tasty treat, how can I get it out?"

It may not use the words that you and I do, but it is definitely thinking, and I believe it has its own dialogue.
people think that because animals can't use our form of communication, that they can't communicate and this simply is not true.

I guess this is getting a little off the topic of reptiles though, which are clearly not as mentally developed as primates.

My argument is more about symantics as you say, because as I have stated on several occasions, levels of emotion in all creatures stem from the basics of what each creature needs to survive.

I believe reptiles do show emotions, but its more a question of how far those emotions go.

 

[kawasakirider]

Again a symantics debate, I would say thinking is not solving problems or processing information but a dialogoue that occurs inside the individuals head.

Dialogue is language. You're personifying/anthromorphising the ability to think in depth. We don't know how they think, so you don't know if they have a means of dialogue or not.

 

[Renenet]

There are however species of skink that live in a highly social environment, including cunningham skinks. What emotions they have, I can't comment on.

And wouldn't that be an interesting study. I seem to remember beardies are social too, though I could be completely making that up.

Come to think of it, that's something else to look into: what we know about social structure among reptiles! If complex emotions and complex social structure are related, it would be very relevant to this topic.

I don't know that you can completely rule it out purely based on brain structure. There's some research into monitors that have suggested mammalian like behavior and that they can do complicated things such as count, identify people, engage in play and plan ahead.

I think it's related to the size of the monitors; as I understand it, larger body means larger brain. But I take your point about not ruling it out based on brain structure. We're only just beginning to understand how our own brains work.

There's a theory I read some time ago that intelligent alien life would have to be of a certain size in order to be intelligent. I always felt a bit skeptical about that because who the heck knows what kind of evolution could occur another planet? The brain holds sway here on Earth; there's nothing to say that another mechanism for thinking couldn't develop elsewhere. But I digress.

 

[cement]

What? A facial display is just one way of conveying emotion. Just because something can't convey it, doesn't mean they don't feel it. , just because we can't pick up on their cues, doesn't mean they aren't there.

So if you have a brooding female python, who still actively displays shivering thermogenesis after you have taken her eggs off her, would you consider her to be mourning the loss of her clutch? What if you then found her incubating her water bowl, would she now be classed as happy?
What if you offered her a rat and she ate, and then totally forgot she ever had eggs, would you say then that she had now gotten over her trauma and was back to normal?
What sort of cues would or could we say were emotive ones?

In my humble opinion, and i mentioned this to someone else recently, most reptiles have limited intelligence, especially snakes, with even less capacity to feel emotional connections, but we don't give them credit for what sensory apparatus they do have or how they actually use that to view their world.

 

[kawasakirider]

So if you have a brooding female python, who still actively displays shivering thermogenesis after you have taken her eggs off her, would you consider her to be mourning the loss of her clutch? What if you then found her incubating her water bowl, would she now be classed as happy?
What if you offered her a rat and she ate, and then totally forgot she ever had eggs, would you say then that she had now gotten over her trauma and was back to normal?
What sort of cues would or could we say were emotive ones?

In my humble opinion, and i mentioned this to someone else recently, most reptiles have limited intelligence, especially snakes, with even less capacity to feel emotional connections, but we don't give them credit for what sensory apparatus they do have or how they actually use that to view their world.

No, I wouldn't say that, and for you to ask me in an accusatory way is almost putting words in my mouth. My point is that we don't know if reptiles have anything close to emotions, but to say they don't because they lack facial expressions is not a decent explanation.