Rock Python

[Elapidae1]

Thanks for the read, It's good to see that sometimes wildlife has a win.
I wonder if anyone knows of a case where an animal that has been reintroduced to an area in which it had become extinct, and has been so successful that it has caused unforeseeable consequences for other native wildlife?
Has any reptile in Australia that could be classified as being one of the top predators within it's habitat ever become extinct in recent times, say in the last century?

 

[Elapidae1]

very relevant to recent discussion on this thread, and food for thought

YouTube - The Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See

 

[longirostris]

I would like to congratulate all the participants contributing to this thread. It is probably the most interesting thread I have followed in the several years I have been watching these forums. So many interesting topics (philosophy, theology, ethics, conservation, herpetoculture) invoking many emotions in many of the thread followers I am sure. Certainly in my case anyway.

Many times during the discourse I have wanted to contribute but have found so many emotions and thoughts forming that I knewI would be writing an essay length post if I got into it. But I cannot help myself because of the quality of the thought processes going on here.

I think Steve is right. He makes the correct point in my view that human beings are only doing what comes naturally to all species on this planet, trying to survive. Unfortunately and this point has also been made we have succeeded spectacularly at this, hence a population of some six and a half billion of us. I doubt there would be another vertabrate species on the planet with the same population numbers, not even rats and mice. The unfortunate part of our success has been the ever increasing destruction of natural resources for our food, clothing, housing, and over the last couple of hundred years or so to improve our quality of life by convering raw materials into products that many of us today could not live without. Motor vehicles, Television, computers, electricity, etc, etc, the list goes on and on. Tell me who among the readers of this forum would give up all these comforts for the sake of conservation. To make sure a species such as Oenpelli survives. In

 

[Elapidae1]

I know I wouldn't, I can't, I don't know how to survive without them, and therefore believe it would be a step backwards. As a race we need to find ways to lessen our impact and contribute to the environment whilst moving forward at the same time.

 

[longirostris]

Sorry I accidently posted without finishing. What I was saying was, In truth, there would be very few if any that would be prepared to give up their quality of life for the sake of conservation of an environment or species. What difference has the disappearance of the Dodo or the Thylacine had on the lives of the billions of people who do not even know what a Thylacine was or perhaps is.

It is a sad fact that species extinction in some ways is unavoidable and is the natural order of things. Just as a giant asteriod was the cause of the last great extinction event on this earth, can we ourselves not be the very cause of the sixth mass extinction event that another intelligent species may look back to through the fossil record in 60 to 100 million years time.

As a species we hold ourselves in very high regard, yet we have absolutely little thought for just how fragile our own tenure on this planet actually is. We could and very likely will be part of the next great extinction event that hits our planet, and in the distant future will we be anymore then what the Dinosaurs are to us today.

I doubt that there would be anyone of us that would not want to see captive breeding programs for all endeangered species on the planet. I think that the efforts that people put in to these programs are wonderful and should be supported at all costs. Channel the money being spent on military hardware into conservation and see what a huge difference that would make. I would cheers form the highest rooftops to see it happen as I am sure we all would.

But ultimately and in the end the efforts will be futile and count for nought because all species on this planet at some stage are destined for extinction, that is the natural order. We make way for the new. That is why we live and that is why we die.

 

[AUSHERP]

we are not merely surviving as other creatures do, we are raping the planet. overpopulation is the problem, we wont let anyone die!! a brain tumour in nature would mean certain death as would something even as small as a sprained ankle but we humans, don't allow it. we chuck the sick on the backs of other humans and carry them until they get better, more people = less resources= a drive for "survival" and so the environment suffers, it may seem morally unsound and as an individual death is sad and horrible, but as a race on a full planet death is necessary.
the oenpelli python needs to be established in captiviy so yet another specie is not lost forever.

 

[Waterrat]

I think Steve is right. He makes the correct point in my view that human beings are only doing what comes naturally to all species on this planet, trying to survive.

Thank you for your contribution longirostris, you brought up many valid points. One that I would like to comment on the the quote above. I find it hard to swallow that we, humans are merely trying to survive. Well, I survived last night by pealing tiger prawns, flushed down with NZ sav blanc, a nice deset, couple of burbs and I was in haven. Yes, I am a sinner! Animals do whatever it takes to survive for one and one reason only - to reproduce. Ironically, it seems that we are doing exactly the same, just look at the human population. Although we are just another vertebrates, our approach to survival is fundamentally different and so is our attitude towards nature. Whilst natural extinctions are driven by evolution, our contribution to extinctions through our so called "survival" has got nothing to do with evolution.
I think even us atheists wish for some God who would shout from the skies "stop breeding like rabbits you fools"!

 

[imported_Varanus]

Or, "Have you learn't nothing from Easter Island"!

As Governments and the human population in general dither and bicker about the latest wants, war or popular craze, I can't help feeling like we're all the proverbial "rat in a box" of finite resources, dissapearing at an ever increasing rate with an ever growing population.

Just to let you know, I've got dibbs on the small, fat ones!!

 

[Guest]

haha Greg your not starting to enjoy this forum stuff are you?

 

[AUSHERP]

thats right, we think this planet is vast beyond imagine but with 6 billion and counting, it's starting to feel mighty small! they were recently looking for water on the moon, on the moon i tell you!!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I'm still not convinced that humans only ever act 'naturally' and that what we are seeing is a result of natural, if changing, behaviours. I don't think the greed which is evident in humanity today was evident when we lived in caves and had to scratch for a living, and risk our lives every time we wanted to dong a Mammoth on the head - the risks involved in doing that meant that you only ever did it when you truly had to. Our use of ALL resources far exceeds our actual needs - we don't NEED 2 or 3 cars per household, 2 or 3 TVs per household, a huge wardrobe of clothes, 20 pairs of shoes (I have 2 lol)... but we have them because it is convenient and we have to LOOK like we're successful to feel successful - just staying alive another day is no longer enough.

A parallel can be made with what we do with reptiles - nearly all our (human) babies survive these days, especially the white ones, and with captive reptiles, all our captive bred babies survive as well, so limiting populations has to be a matter of CHOICE - the natural limiting factors such as disease, predation etc no longer apply. It is well known, now, that population growth is reduced where education is best - the most educated societies exercise choice in these matters, especially where women are well educated. Incidentally, we're (whiteys) doing a damned good job of stuffing up other human communities and wiping them out too.

I think that the greed we are seeing in much of the human population these days is much more an artefact of NURTURE rather than NATURE, and we are being driven by something quite different from the basic need to survive (we've solved that problem), which still remains the driving force for all other species.

Jamie.

 

[Slickturtle]

EErr! Well, I guess it's not entirely what I thought it would be. But then I am an old codger and take a little while to adjust. But it is all good stuff and it has made me think a lot about my values and why I think the way I do. This is healthy. I will come back in when it gets back onto conservation of our rare reptiles.

But in short - it ain't that I don't enjoy. Anyway, it has cooled down a bit outside and I am going to go and fiddle with the turtle farm - I might have a swim while I am at it. If you want to see what my farm looks like, check it out at

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

Cheers and keep it going.

Slick

haha Greg your not starting to enjoy this forum stuff are you?

 

[jahan]

Great photo`s Slick, thanks for sharing.Is that place called heaven?

 

[Bushfire]

I would have to disagree with you Jamie. If we look at alot of tribual cultures you will find the same behaviours that we display including greed. If you go to alot of villages in PNG you will find that the wildlife within some kms of them are gone. In Africa, its natives doing the majority of the poaching these days. Closer to home, it was the aboriginal people that forever altered the environment to suit their needs causing untold extinction, we will never know the full exent. The bush and the wildlfie either adapted to their methods or vanished. This kind of greed you think is unnatual, probably started back when we started to be social creatures and placing individuals in higher hierachry. Back in the cave days if you had more food / furs you probably were deemed more attractive to females and more likely to have offspring that would survive.

The world may of changed we deem different things as status symbols but the behaviours are the same. We can even see similar behaviours in the animal kingdoms.

 

[Elapidae1]

Thanks everyone that has participated in this thread, I think however I am going to leave it at that, as far as the philosophical stuff goes. It's a good feeling that my thoughts have been able to evoke the response it has from some members, whether they were in agreement with me or not. Some of you obviously have considerable expertise in areas that concern our natural fauna and their conservation, and I am grateful for the fact you have taken the time to read, reply and even encourage me to voice my opinions and ideas. I am not accustomed to conversation and discussion on such in depth matters, and can not recall a time that anyone has encouraged it, so it means a lot to me.
As I have previously stated I find it quite difficult and time consuming to string these posts together, So I'm going to leave it at that before my wife causes me to be Extinct.

Great pics by the way Slick. Is this turtle farm a rehabilitation project?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I don't really have time tonight to go further here, but as far as natives doing the poaching is concerned, the end of line clients are wealthy foreigners where such things as ivory, rhino horn are concerned. Much of the loss of wildlife in PNG is due to the fact that under modern pressures, nomadic lifestyles have become necessarily sedentary. Worthy of further discussion, but not tonight for me!

J.

 

[Matt-and-Jo]

well its a huge area arnhem land and a million spots to land a boat and they definitly swap reptiles for grog with indonesian traders thats a fact, oenpellis are most likely overseas in several collections and countless empty bottles littering arnhem land

 

[Slickturtle]

Thanks Bushman, I think I have done alright also, but these posts have taken considerable effort for me, on average about 1and 1/2 hours each, LOL.
You are right we do have a responsibility to take action, As I grow older and watch my daughter grow, these things gather growing importance to me, though admittedly anything that I have done for conservation is small fry compared to the efforts of others. I hold a great many of these people in the highest regard, I love to see the passion displayed by people for the environment and our wildlife, as it is often a display of human nature at it's best and most selfless. As a kid I loved everything to do with nature but somewhere along the way it was lost, only to be rediscovered in the last couple of years. My passion is for reptiles I don't know why, I just love to interact with them, I love to come across them and look for them in the bush, and I guess it naturally goes hand in hand with wanting to protect the environment in which they live. One day I hope to find away to devote my working life to reptiles and the conservation of them and their environment, I feel that it's my responsibility to. The question is HOW? It's with growing frustration that my desire to do this, conflicts with the need to provide for my family

Well Steve

If we ever mange to get some Oenpelli Pythons into a breeding scenario I can see a guy like you being an ideal person to take on a pair of young ones to breed the numbers up. One of the critical things about captive breeding for conservation is that we need lots of people to breed them to maximise genetic diversity. In this way you would be doing something to help conserve our reptiles.

I reckon you would be a good candidate as your persona (as it comes across on the forum) is not dissimilar to that of the python. These are big snakes but the ones I have had, have avoided biting at all costs. They might struggle to escape the confines of your hands but they won't bite. These are gentle and thoughtful creatures - just like you!

Slick

 

[Elapidae1]

LOL cheers, One day I hope to be skilled enough to accept that kind of responsibility.

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi Steve

Sorry to hear that you are bowing out of the discussion - but I fully understand why.

No, not turtle rehabilitation - instead, this is an exercise in Sustainable Use Of Wildlife. I sell the babies to anyone who can afford them down south.

The NT Parks and Wildlife appear to be better than most in Aus and have been very good to me in allowing me to set up the worlds only Pig Nose Turtle breeding facility.

But now that I have your attention - could I prevail on you to look at the big picture in a different way - and tell me what you think? (But if you don't want to, that is OK someone else might take up the following challenge):

You say that the extinction of animals is a natural consequence of humans behaving naturally and therefore extinction of animals and plants that get in our way is a natural event.

How about this then? The definition of a plague (as defined by the Oxford Dic. is "An unusually large number of insects or animals infesting a place and causing damage: eg a plague of locusts."

Plagues of locusts are natural - maybe. What about the human plague? By any definition the Human animal would be described as a plague on earth. So I guess we are behaving naturally as would a plague of mice or locusts, - but we all know what ultimately happens to plagues of mice - or anything else for that matter. And that is the catastrophic end collapse. So my question would be - if we know where plagues lead, and we are so very smart, why would we not put the brakes on our own plague to save ourselves and all those critters around us? And this question suggests that it doesn't matter if it is natural or unnatural.

By Bi

Slick