Rock Python

[Elapidae1]

Ok I cant help myself.
By my understanding a plague usually happens when a series of things occur that create an environment in which the insect or animal can flourish.
We have certainly flourished.
With locusts I think it's largely weather related.
A couple of Questions though. With plagues of mice and locusts is the end result catastrophic collapse. Or are they just reduced to their base sustainable level?
Will the human race ultimately collapse (extinction) or will we just be reduced to our base sustainable level?
Either way its a frightening thought and until it happens I don't think it can be answered
To answer the question. All other plagues as far as I know have behaved single mindedly they don't have the ability to reason or feel emotion. Humans have the ability to think for themselves
Actually come to think of it, Plague is a human definition and as far as I can tell we only call it a plague when the said insect or animal has a significant affect on humans.
It seems a reasonable theory to me that when an animal experiences conditions that allow it to reach plague proportions, then they are reacting to a survival mechanism, massive numbers of offspring mean that when they have exhausted the vast majority of their resources then by pure numbers alone they have ensured their best chance at survival. Is it possible that by sheer numbers alone the human race just may survive the catastrophic end collapse?
Is it possible that instinctively we are acting like any other plague animal and gorging ourselves in a time of prosperity to ensure our greatest chance at survival?

I feel that this discussion is impossible to conclude, There are just to many perspectives to view it from, though as I have just demonstrated, it's going to be quite difficult for me to just bow out, but please don't be offended if I can't keep it up.

Those Pig Nose Turtles are something else, though another animal I'm sure we cannot keep in WA.

Steve

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi Matt and Jo

Just a few quick points on Almond Land. 1. Yes Almond land is big, but Oenpelli Pythons are only found in the most inaccessible western edge, a tiny part of Arnhemland and about 60 km in a straight line from the sea - that is a long walk. So, anyone arriving by boat would more likely motor up the East Alligator River to get anywhere near the habitat of the Oenpelli Python. This would be risky as the Kakadu rangers are all crazed fishermen and the poachers would have to sail past them to get to the sandstone country. One of the jobs of the Rangers is to inspect boats to ensure that people have been sticking to the fishing bag limit.
2. "they definitely swap reptiles for grog with Indonesian traders." Hmmm - I haven't seen or heard any evidence of that. I wonder how the Indonesians get past the flotillas of Aussie naval Patrol boats and Customs planes and boats which are scouring the sea looking for asylum seekers?
3. I kind of hope that there are Oenpellis over seas in collections because the way we are going, there won't be any at all in Australia in 50 years.
4. Yes, there are countless bottles littering Almond Land but not with "Made in Indonesia" written on them. They will have things like "Carlton United Brewery" written on them.

We will have ask Gordo what he reckons when he gets back from the Arnhemland coast to his home at Oenpelli.

See yah

Slick

well its a huge area arnhem land and a million spots to land a boat and they definitly swap reptiles for grog with indonesian traders thats a fact, oenpellis are most likely overseas in several collections and countless empty bottles littering arnhem land

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi Steve

"Those Pig Nose Turtles are something else, though another animal I'm sure we cannot keep in WA."

That is right, you can't have hem. Another crazy law. This species will be declared internationally endangered in 10 years or so. i can breed any number but cannot sell them all as the Aust. market is so small - because states like WA ban them. I cannot imagine why? Are they worried that this delicate tropical turtle is going to get loose in the Swan River and breed into the thousands and eat the legs off your Black swans? They would last about 10 minutes in your southern rivers.

Maybe they are worried that they would get into the Ord? I can imagine how long this most delicious of all freshwater turtles would last up there with such a big and hungry indigenous population. On the other hand - international export of wild caught Pig Noses for the restaurant trade could be a huge industry out of Lake Argyle!! Trouble is - you would have to make beaches for them to nest in. I don't think there are beaches around Argyle - are there?

Cheers

Slick

 

[waruikazi]

I saw that comment but wasn't going to respond just incase it got this thread even further off topic. But seeing as i was called out i'll see if i can tailer a response that adresses the indo fishers and native fauna rather than grog.

History has shown that there was trade amongst the fishers and the coastal indigenous people. Although from my memories of studying the hostory of North Australia at university it was usually for food and water... and women (again a 'lil off topic) not reptiles for the pet trade. Grog was also traded.

Does it happen now? Well with the advent of fridge freezers and distilleries and shops and motors and electrizity i can't see a reason why the Indo's would need to risk making contact with locals along the coast and i can't see what the locals would want from them. That along with the effinciency of the Aussie customs authority it makes it very difficult for people to land. I'll share a story from last week that shows how good customs is. I was out with a few mates, one of which was a traditional owner, in really remote Arnhem Land hunting for buffalo. It was dark, there was no one around for a hundred km either way and we weren't using any lights. When we were about to leave a customs plane flew over us a couple times cuase they picked up our heat signals. So there is no hiding from customs.

Another story i'll share will give you an idea of what the locals think of the indo fishers. It flies a little in the face of what i wrote above but it is a good example of the relationship between locals and the illegals. During the wet a couple years ago everyone at the outstation i was camping at last week had to go out bush for ceremony. They were away for a week and when they got back they found that the indos had broken into their houses, used their beds, facilities and eaten their dogs. They really don't like each other.

For those reasons combined with Greg's arguments and the fact that grog is so much easier to buy from shops i think it is very unlikely that their is an illegal trade in reptiles for grog and even more so for Oenpellis.

Hi Matt and Jo

Just a few quick points on Almond Land. 1. Yes Almond land is big, but Oenpelli Pythons are only found in the most inaccessible western edge, a tiny part of Arnhemland and about 60 km in a straight line from the sea - that is a long walk. So, anyone arriving by boat would more likely motor up the East Alligator River to get anywhere near the habitat of the Oenpelli Python. This would be risky as the Kakadu rangers are all crazed fishermen and the poachers would have to sail past them to get to the sandstone country. One of the jobs of the Rangers is to inspect boats to ensure that people have been sticking to the fishing bag limit.
2. "they definitely swap reptiles for grog with Indonesian traders." Hmmm - I haven't seen or heard any evidence of that. I wonder how the Indonesians get past the flotillas of Aussie naval Patrol boats and Customs planes and boats which are scouring the sea looking for asylum seekers?
3. I kind of hope that there are Oenpellis over seas in collections because the way we are going, there won't be any at all in Australia in 50 years.
4. Yes, there are countless bottles littering Almond Land but not with "Made in Indonesia" written on them. They will have things like "Carlton United Brewery" written on them.

We will have ask Gordo what he reckons when he gets back from the Arnhemland coast to his home at Oenpelli.

See yah

Slick

 

[waruikazi]

Wow! The week in the bush has really left me with alot of reading to do!

Thankyou for putting up that article Greg, made for a very good read. I think you may be pleased to hear that despite floods, cyclones and fires the legacy of some of the herpers mentioned in that article are still having an impact in our school. There is a collection of preserved reptiles and other animals in our science resources that Brian Jukes collected in the 70's. When i can get access to my school i'll try and get some pictures up of them.

Hi all

Since there seems to be a hunger out there to learn more about these mystical snakes I offer you and article written in June last year by a mate of mine who lives in Darwin.

If you read this you will know as much as anyone about this critter.

I have never uploaded a text file before so it will be interesting to see how it goes.

Cheers

Slick

 

[Bushman]

Welcome back Gordo. Yes, this thread has survived, as have you it seems. Did you see many herps out in the bush when you were out there or are they lying low a bit?
Have you ever seen a wild Oenpelli up there?

 

[waruikazi]

I was out on Coburg peninsula which is the most northern part of the NT so no there were definately no oenpellis up there. We saw lots of crocodiles but not too much more. But it was mainly a fishing trip so no real suprises. I did manage to pick up a bockodam, which was the first i've got hold of, very strange snake and was not what i was expecting at all, saw a GTS when i was chasing a buffalo and also saw a Gwardar which looked more like a speckled brown. Unfortunately no pics.

A little controversial but i'll share anyway. We caught a big sea turtle which would have weighed 50kg+ which was quicky turned into turtle soup by the locals, i didn't get to try any but they said it was delicious.

Welcome back Gordo. Yes, this thread has survived, as have you it seems. Did you see many herps out in the bush when you were out there or are they lying low a bit?
Have you ever seen a wild Oenpelli up there?

 

[Bushman]

So there's still a few herps out and about. That's an interesting few to see anyway.
What species of turtle was it?

Have you ever seen any wild Oenpelli's, ever? I thought that since you're near the namesake place you may have come across a few.

 

[waruikazi]

Yeah there is still a few out there, more than a few actually there's bloody heaps of them. I keep a diary like any good herper of what i have seen and the conditions etc i think i average about five snakes a week in oenpelli so three in five days without looking would probably mean there are similar numbers out there. I think it was a green turtle but i'm not sure hey, i'll see if i can get pics of my mates camera to put up in another thread. Stinky animals but!

I have never seen a wild Oenpelli, although i'm still holding out hope and doing a bit of research to try and increase my chances. Until i read that article Greg posted up i really didn't think that you would get them inside the community. Now that i know it can happen i'm even keener. If i ever find one i'll make sure you guys are the first to know.

 

[Bushman]

Thanks mate. If you post a pic of the turtle up in another thread, I can confirm its identity, as I'm sure Slick can as well.

Back to Oenpellis now and from all accounts, including yours, they're very thin on the ground. Maybe there's fat ones in the trees? (Sorry, couldn't help myself. I know it's no laughing matter!)
It really highlights the need for establishing this species in captivity, when resident herpers like yourself haven't even seen a single specimen in the type locality!
Keep your ear to the ground, as I'm sure you do and thanks for offering to keep us informed if you do find one.

 

[Slickturtle]

"they're very thin on the ground. Maybe there's fat ones in the trees?"

Of course!!! that is where we have been going wrong!

Hey Gordo - get out there and look for fat ones in trees. LoL

Cheers

Slick

 

[waruikazi]

Lol Greg. I actually had a dream just before this thread started that i saw one coiled up in the Banyan tree near my house. And it was a fatty.

 

[cement]

This thread has been a very interesting and intriguing read.
I also liked the you tube clip that I think Steve put up as it resonates with my simple belief of an old saying that "it is better to light a candle, then to curse the coming darkness."

I have had disagreements with certain people involved in this thread before, but I do think that if we were to have a beer together we would probably get on fine as we share similar feelings about our great country and its wildlife.

My thoughts about the Oenpelli Python is this "its better to light a candle, then to curse the coming darkness". Do something about getting it secure in captivity just as JW has done with the RSP. I keep a pair of these remarkable snakes and they are a absolute pleasure to own and I see it as an honour.

Hey Steve1, your only 30 or so, and reading your post about wanting to do something with wildlife and conservation but not knowing what, is very similar to feelings I have had in the past. When you really look at all the problems we have created for this world it can well and truly overwhelm us and leave us with a feeling of helplessness or "why bother, as it won't be big enough to change anything."

My answer to this is to start small. Or, if that how you feel then just do something. Even just being on here is having an impact as knowledge is shared and discussion from people who are in the field and have real experience in these areas comes up for us to read and learn about. Its the small everyday things we do to help that give us a sense of satisfaction.

My other favorite saying is this, "Introspection begets wisdom."
This works on many different levels, and for me, when I look at what we as humans are doing to this beautiful planet and to each other, I feel that there just isn't enough of this going on.

 

[Elapidae1]

Thanks very much for the advice. I hope someone manages to light that candle before it's to late. I think this thread may have had a positive impact on a number of people, it has certainly got me thinking, lets just hope these thoughts result in action, not just for the Oenpelli Python but the environment as a whole. That Youtube clip was shown to me a couple of years ago and I thought it was quite appropriate for this thread.

Steve

 

[Pythoninfinite]

The thread has strayed way off the original topic, but I don't think anyone is complaining.

The biggest problem our wildlife faces at this time is the huge range of confusing laws and restrictions in existence from state to state, and this, coupled with the fact that many of the 'enforcers' have been in positions of influence for decades. When many of these guys (& girls) started their corporate climb, it may have been a fact that maintaining distance between Oz wildlife and Oz people was a useful 'conservation' management tool. I think however, it has sown the seeds of the situation we face today.

In my view, the ONLY hope many species have is in the hands of caring and knowlegeable community members - frankly, the interested community is a relatively HUGE resource of knowledge, time & money compared to the 'authorised' facilities, which may or may not be interested in a specific project. Government departments will always chose cuddly, attractive targets to save because it has more appeal for the public.

Bureaucrats who have been in control of the 'hands-off our wildlife' policies are not suddenly going to turn around and admit they are wrong, or may even have been wrong for decades. They have been telling themselves and us for decades that their way is the only way, and you will incur their wrath if you don't obey. They are very reluctant to 'get with the program' as it is these days, and maintain attitudes that stem from the days when keeping a reptile meant that it was taken from the wild. They are dealing in the 21st century with rules that stem from mid-20th century, and the lansdcape has changed beyond recognition in that time.

As I said earlier in the thread - THEY are the agents of exrtinction these days, along with habitat degradation and feral pests.

Jamie.

 

[Bushman]

Very well said Jamie! I couldn't agree more and I know some well respected biological and environmental scientists that support these views, at least privately.

It's becoming increasingly apparent that this archaic system of management or rather mismanagement of our wildlife is far from adequate! The situation is getting dire and it's high time to reform the system. You're absolutely right that the powers that be are not going to change the system that they themselves installed and administer. The current situation will only be improved by strong and persistent action from the people that really care!

 

[Waterrat]

If we are to influence the course of changes that we would like to see, it's absolutely paramount to form an national body that will represent and act on behalf of us, devoted keepers / breeders / conservationists. It would be stunningly beneficial if we could demonstrate the we CAN organise ourselves nationally, as oppose to the fractionated state-based system the government has. We would be well in position to ignore the state authorities and deal directly with the feds if not directly with the minster Peter Garrett. It's time!

 

[Kristy_07]

I agree with the idea of a movement, Michael. But I think a lot of research would need to be done on the best way to a) receive government support, and 2) receive funding. Having worked in environmental charities, and seen the processes of what actually has to get done before anything gets done, I know that it's not as simple as a group of enthusiastic conservationists with good intentions getting together and "making a difference". But I'd be happy to look into this in more detail when I'm home.

 

[Waterrat]

Regardless of my political views, I think Peter Garrett is THE best person to engage. Who knows what the next elections will bring, even if the current government stays in, portfolios can change hands. His singing is lousy but he has made some sound environmental decisions in his time.

Since we really are way of the topic and title "rock python" would you Jamie, Greg, Steve or anyone else like to start a new thread on these issues? Could anyone comment on the current state of the National Keepers Association (if I have the name right)?

 

[Waterrat]

Let him yell as much as he likes as long as he doesn't sing! .... oh, it's the same, silly me.

M