Rock Python

[Kristy_07]

Sorry, Michael. Just thought I'd try to inject some humour into my post replying to your suggestion of an... oenpelli movement? I wasn't really saying that I think Garrett is Voldemort (though the physical similarities are uncanny, IMO). But I also don't think he would be the best person to engage as a starting point for a movement. More than happy to continue this in a more appropriate thread.

Apologies for being off topic.

Slick - I think Garrett was probably more environmentally effective when he was in Midnight Oil, and yelling at everyone about the environment was his job

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi Waterrat

I would not know how to "make a new thread"! But I will use it if you make it! Do you think our faithful readers would follow?

I am hoping to strike a blow for the establishment of a National Reptile Keepers Association at Cairns in October at the National Hepetological Symposium. We need names of good, experienced herp keepers who (in Cairns) can form a little starter motor which will start the bigger starter motor which will start a powerful engine of change - the National Reptile Keepers Association.

Amongst other things, we want someone out there who can set up a web site for the Association and be an administrator of it. There is a huge amount of stuff (from Australia and overseas) that can be posted on such a site - stuff which demonstrates the common sense and conservation benefit of what Pythoninfinite is saying. All this material (easily accessible) will help everyone to understand what is wrong and how things are going in terms of fixing it. It is crucially important that everyone of us is "reading from the same page".

Then we need to get everybodys attention with a series of traveling presentations to let everyone know what is happening; how and why and most importantly; to get people to come on board. I am happy to do that at my own expense.

We need someone in each state to talk to the state associations of keepers of Aussie mammals, birds and the Aust. Native Fish keepers to get them all on board. I am even thinking of getting all the Australian native plant people involved and added them to our number. They live in a world of declining native species too, and their experience with the Wollomi Pine is very similar to ours with the RS Python. Once this is done and we have tens of thousands of people giving us their "in principle" support, I reckon we will be an almost unstoppable coalition for change.

One of the main jobs is to inform these people of what is wrong at the moment. A lot of people are unaware that the current system is broken and will allow stacks of our native animals to go extinct without lifting a hand to save them. And here, amongst people like you, we have thousands of Australians who are keen to save species at their own expense.

It would be good to get herp keepers in every state to allocate jobs within this new campaign - aimed at getting the state and Federal Governments to start to talk about a fresh look at the way things are done in this country. Something has got to give soon. Things cannot keep going the way they are, too many of our native animals will be lost unnecessarily if we sit back and do nothing. New information is constantly falling into our hands which adds strength to our argument - which I must stress is aimed at conservation at its core. This campaign must be about conservation through captive breeding in the private sector. The spin off will be that you would be able to keep and breed and trade many more species than you can today and you will be doing a valuable service to the environment at the same time.

There is room for everyone to be a part of this. Are you with us on this?

Slick

Regardless of my political views, I think Peter Garrett (Voldemort as you put it) is THE best person to engage. Who knows what the next elections will bring, even if the current government stays in, portfolios can change hands. His singing is lousy but he has made some sound environmental decisions in his time.

Since we really are way of the topic and title "rock python" would you Jamie, Greg, Steve or anyone else like to start a new thread on these issues? Could anyone comment on the current state of the National Keepers Association (if I have the name right)?

 

[Kristy_07]

I would be on board, Slick. I'll PM you.

 

[Waterrat]

Slick,

there is a wealth of information and bright comments in this thread already and it would a shame to loose it. On second thought, rather than starting a new thread, perhaps we could asks the mods / admin to re-name this thread to something like "National reptile keepers association" or "conservation & captive breeding" or similar. The mods could also clean up this thread and leave only the posts that are relevant to the topic. I will flag this post and see what happens.

cheers
M

 

[Southside Morelia]

Hey Pythoninfinite, I think Steve is right up to a point . But the trouble is that when you start thinking about the big philosophical questions, things can easily get bogged down.

Hey Steve - I wonder if we could look at your view from this point of view: we humans are so clever that we have put ourselves in reverse evolution i.e. the opposite to survival of the fittest. This is because we are coming up with all sorts of cures and vaccines for common human conditions which used to kill us. Now we can live through what used to be fatal conditions and breed - thereby passing on an inheritable weakness to our children and then they to theirs etc. Therefore I would argue that if we can play God with our own survival prospects, why should we deny other animals on this planet the same gift of our genius. Would you be Humanistically selfish and let them slide into oblivion whilst you rush off to the Doctor to get some life saving procedure or medicine for yourself?
Geees that hurt!!!
Keep up the wide thinking Steve, it tests us all.
Slick

I have pondered this myself, what is going to happen with the over population in the future, because of the above mentioned self-indulgent attitude of us homo-sapiens, which will have an obvious flow on affects to ALL other endangered and at risk animals of the world, plus making us a weaker specie which is more susceptible and NOT conforming to evolution as it has been for millions of years, survival of the fittest!
IF we are the ones to be the cause of a demise to a specie through climate change (which I am sceptical of) or other habitat devastation reasons, it should be up to us to help that specie survive! If it is natural selection to the demise of a specie...like for example the giraffe which are on the brink of evolutionary disaster...let nature take its course!
JMO!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thanks for that Greg,

There has been lots of talk about a reptile keepers' overseeing body in the past few years, the NRKA has actually been incorporated in NSW, and there is a group of people very keen to get the show on the road.It is likely that there will be some movement here in NSW in the next few weeks, perhaps a public get-together to get an idea of the issues we face and ideas about how to best structure the beast.

One of the reasons for the slow progress here has been the DECCW initiative regarding minimum standards legislation - it has bee on the go for almost 2 years now, and has taken a great deal of time from the individuals who have an interest in both the legislation and the keepers' association. Far from being resolved at this point in time, NPWS has become totally secretive about what they propose to drop into the reptile keeping equation in this state (other than indicating that enclosure sizes will be MANDATORY (we don't know what sizes they propose to enforce, or where their advice is coming from...)

This represents a move into a new area of management for NPWS here in NSW - a new way to increase the already significant bureaucratic pressure on reptile keepers.

So, until we can see what is in store for us here, there isn't much time for anything else...

Watch this space though...

Jamie.

 

[Waterrat]

I appreciate that you NSW guys have hands full with the standards legislation but other keen people elsewhere may be ready to make a move (Greg for example). While keeping up the wood work in Mexico, do you thing that some reps from the NRKA could join in for a meeting in Cairns in October? I got the feeling that the symposium and a series of meetings outside of it could give the movement a good kick start.

 

[Southside Morelia]

The thread has strayed way off the original topic, but I don't think anyone is complaining.

The biggest problem our wildlife faces at this time is the huge range of confusing laws and restrictions in existence from state to state, and this, coupled with the fact that many of the 'enforcers' have been in positions of influence for decades. When many of these guys (& girls) started their corporate climb, it may have been a fact that maintaining distance between Oz wildlife and Oz people was a useful 'conservation' management tool. I think however, it has sown the seeds of the situation we face today.

In my view, the ONLY hope many species have is in the hands of caring and knowlegeable community members - frankly, the interested community is a relatively HUGE resource of knowledge, time & money compared to the 'authorised' facilities, which may or may not be interested in a specific project. Government departments will always chose cuddly, attractive targets to save because it has more appeal for the public.

Bureaucrats who have been in control of the 'hands-off our wildlife' policies are not suddenly going to turn around and admit they are wrong, or may even have been wrong for decades. They have been telling themselves and us for decades that their way is the only way, and you will incur their wrath if you don't obey. They are very reluctant to 'get with the program' as it is these days, and maintain attitudes that stem from the days when keeping a reptile meant that it was taken from the wild. They are dealing in the 21st century with rules that stem from mid-20th century, and the lansdcape has changed beyond recognition in that time.

As I said earlier in the thread - THEY are the agents of exrtinction these days, along with habitat degradation and feral pests.

Jamie.

Sorry Guys I am posting as I am catching up on the thread...LOL I am a tad behind!

I'm in with probably a few media contacts to help the cause and I fuly support you guys and you are the ones to make that change 100%

Pete Garret, not only because I am a Midnight Oil Fan WILL be a Ambassador to the cause, but you guys Slick, Jamie and many others (sorry to offend for not mentioning) as well as us concerned herpers, WILL help change the opinions and also make this work, definitely.
My job is write work place procedures and motivate staff into achieving the goals of the Business and a spin off for me, is to bring that expertise & support into the hobby I love...ie motivation and simply laying it out on the table with all the facts and for the laymen to understand. The target IS, NOT necessarily the minority of educated herpers, BUT the general populace who don't even know that this issue even exists!
Sorry guys, a little emotional stuff, but it does mean alot.
Thanks again

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I'm with you Scott re Peter Garrett's singing - Michaels's taste in music must be wanting somewhat...

Greg, Cairns does seem like an appropriate place to have a brainstorm about these matters, but the issues in Cairns at that time may have to be pretty much separated - the costs involved in attending the Symposium, if you're primarily interested in kicking the National Body ball around, would be daunting, when you add in the costs of fares and accommodation. Many people simply would not be able to afford to attend.

I'd be happy to go to Cairns for either reason if it meant that the movers & shakers were all gathered in the one spot for a few days.

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

Greg, could you and I talk to the organizers? Either to make a room for the intrinsically involved or to organize some time / venue for this event outside but not to far away from the main event?

Jamie, I loved Midnight oil, their music, lyrics, even Pete's strange moves but the voice? He sounds better in the parliament.

M

 

[Kristy_07]

It would be a shame if this would exclude anyone unable to go in October...

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Kristy,

Part of the problem has been the difficulty of getting enough people under one roof at any given time, at any given place. There have been lots of cries of 'elitism' from some of those who may feel excluded, despite these discordant notes, I'm sure we all realise that we have to try and tie everyone together, to try and see the bigger picture, because without a vision common to ALL participants, we will get nowhere. Whilst we are seen to be fighting amongst ourselves, we won't achieve anything worthwhile. Reptile keepers are a notoriously disparate group, and it will always be difficult to get consensus, but without consensus, we can be picked off one by one when it suits the enforcers.

I'm sure there is enough that needs to be done in every jurisdiction, to ensure the 'locals' can have their say. And for the big issues these forums are very good for disseminating information...

Jamie.

 

[Elapidae1]

Wow to think this all started with the opening line. Hey all Ive just been offered a Northern Territory rock Python. It sounds like something could really come of this thread and although I have had a fair bit to say throughout I am now almost lost for words. This thread seems to have almost come to life and grabbed the attentions of many people who all have something in common, the desire for dramatic change and action towards, policies, procedures and the prevailing attitudes of not only leading government bodies but everyday members of the public. At the same time I feel like an opportunity is slipping away from me to finally make a difference, because I just don't know how to move forward and turn these emotions and thoughts into action. I sincerely hope I can be a part of what seems to be emerging here, and if anyone has ideas or guidance on how I can help it would be appreciated, If I can't, then I appeal to those who can, don't let this opportunity go to waste. AUSTRALIA CAN'T AFFORD IT.

STEVE

 

[wriggles]

what about goneself though, did he actually purchase that 'rock python' he was offered??...

 

[Guest]

Wow this thread has come a long way! My computer is working again so I can read all the posts now and its good to see a discussion like this can still take place!

If we are to influence the course of changes that we would like to see, it's absolutely paramount to form an national body that will represent and act on behalf of us, devoted keepers / breeders / conservationists. It would be stunningly beneficial if we could demonstrate the we CAN organise ourselves nationally, as oppose to the fractionated state-based system the government has. We would be well in position to ignore the state authorities and deal directly with the feds if not directly with the minster Peter Garrett. It's time!

Michael I think this is the hardest part, we need an organisation that stands aside from the private keeping of these animals..
The different rules and regulations state to state with the DECC stands in the way of what can be achieved with this, an organisation dedicated to conservation of these animals needs to have the market for private keeping as a second priority!
Im sure everyone would like to be the first to breed the great oenpelli and make a quick buck in the process as these snakes id imagine would be the most highly priced in the market but when the dollars are involved in the process the water gets muddy! private breeding is all about looks whether you are a true locality breeder or not and the inbred/cross locality animals that would become the captive population are worth next to nothing for the conservation of the animals..
We need an organisation that is commited to a captive breeding program for the possibility of reintroduction into the wild.
the problem is if the animal is not worth anything then there seems to be not much interest! what about the top end mulga that Greg posted? what about all the smaller uglier species? what about the small mammals that zoo's wont keep in a breeding program because no one is interested in paying to see them? there are alot of animals out there that could benefit from such an organisation but it needs to be seperated from the private collection/pet trade

its far too late for me to be typing on here and im not even sure if any of that even made any sense so I might try to explain my point tomorrow

cheers
Josh

 

[waruikazi]

Josh you made perfect sense and you hit the nail 100% as far as i am concerned. I was avoiding making further comment on the topic as i have already made my opinion reasonably clear.

If we use the Oenpellis as an example. Because they are, atleast to us, an intriguing and charismatic animal, if we choose to concentrate on this one animal over the countless others that are vunerable we may lose sight of the bigger picture. I think that bigger picture is all the other vunerable plants and animals and their habitat as a whole.

Bringing animals into captivity is a quick fix, it is nothing but a bandaid on the real problems that are facing our environment. I think restocking is too. If we can rehabilitate the habitat to its former state we will not need to restock or have captive populations. People keep bringing up the RSP story as a win in conservation, how has that story made it any more likely for a single animal to survive in the wild? One in the bush is worth a thousand in captivity. And on that note, we don't know anything about nawarans and their true numbers, if we collect a pair of them we could cause the localised extinction of this species.

I also worry that the dollar value of many of these vunerable species will get in the way of any realistic conservation efforts. When a single animal is likely to be worth in excess of $20k i think greed will take control.

Despite my comments i am not against having these or any other native animal in captive collections. There is nothing wrong with sustainable harvest of any wild plant or animal but if we are talking about conservation we need to look beyond our own selfish wants and a single species.

(Like Josh said, it's late i hope that kinda made sense.)

Wow this thread has come a long way! My computer is working again so I can read all the posts now and its good to see a discussion like this can still take place!




Michael I think this is the hardest part, we need an organisation that stands aside from the private keeping of these animals..
The different rules and regulations state to state with the DECC stands in the way of what can be achieved with this, an organisation dedicated to conservation of these animals needs to have the market for private keeping as a second priority!
Im sure everyone would like to be the first to breed the great oenpelli and make a quick buck in the process as these snakes id imagine would be the most highly priced in the market but when the dollars are involved in the process the water gets muddy! private breeding is all about looks whether you are a true locality breeder or not and the inbred/cross locality animals that would become the captive population are worth next to nothing for the conservation of the animals..
We need an organisation that is commited to a captive breeding program for the possibility of reintroduction into the wild.
the problem is if the animal is not worth anything then there seems to be not much interest! what about the top end mulga that Greg posted? what about all the smaller uglier species? what about the small mammals that zoo's wont keep in a breeding program because no one is interested in paying to see them? there are alot of animals out there that could benefit from such an organisation but it needs to be seperated from the private collection/pet trade

its far too late for me to be typing on here and im not even sure if any of that even made any sense so I might try to explain my point tomorrow

cheers
Josh

 

[Waterrat]

Josh, you have made a brave move in your post, you have nailed it on the head and no doubt that will stir a fierce discussion - I will get back to it tomorrow. As you said, it's a bit late and the few glasses of red don't make me think any clearer.
Trust your instincts. lol

 

[Darlyn]

Who is this Darlyn who brought the conversation back onto topic?!! We were having a great time 'out there' not talking about the topic! Well, to answer your question - I think the Territory Wildlife Park still has one. But no breeding prospects there.
Hi Slick,

I wondered if maybe Graeme Gow had one in his collection at some stage and perhaps it was still there.
I was looking at your pics and my partner said "oh that's Greg". His name is Steve.... (are you allowed to use last names on this forum?)
He must know you I have seen pics of him in the same shorts as yours : )

 

[Laghairt]

I'm actually studying biodiversity law at the moment and although I agree that it would be better to be managed under a single federal body, in reality this will never happen (unless we can change the constitution). Unfortunately, the way Australian legislation is set up means that the states retain control of the management of wildlife that exists within state boundaries. So although the Commonwealth can have some influence over decision making, the power really lies with the state governments. This is why we have the complex disjointed systems that currently exist.

I still believe it would be beneficial to establish some kind of organised lobby group at the national level; however to achieve real results it would be better to focus on lobbying at the state level.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

anouc is correct, although a two-pronged approach is probably needed. The Federal Minister won't readily ride rough-shod over the states, and in reality it's the states that cause the biggest problems - old ways of thinking in the new environment.