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FAY
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Thanks for that info Gordon...
Rock Python
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Thanks for that info Gordon...
waruikazi
Legendary
Not yet. I asked for a copy but i couldn't get one because at this point in time there is no hard or soft copy ready to be viewed. The fella i spoke to did give me a brief idea of what was being done but i didn't ask him if it would be ok to make mention of it publicly. Just to tease you all he also told me a few other really interesting things that i wont get into either. 
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
The one that died from an 'infectious disease' after coming to Sydney for the first Expo died 3 weeks after returning to the TWP due to RI I'm told, it was taken every night up into the Blue Mountains, for security purposes, and not provided with heat during that time. I saw the animal there, and know who was responsible for it.
Kristy and others, PLEASE don't think this action group is just for the 'big boys' - whatever that may mean. The reason that a few familiar names come up when this is discussed is because many of them are in frequent communication with each other, have known each other for years, and have a deep understanding and concern for not just the hobby/industry, but for our landscape and it's wildlife. Much of what has fuelled the debate between them has been the constant difficulties they face when dealing with surly, unwilling, uncooperative and even threatening bureaucrats, who see no good coming from the keeping of our native animals.
The reason this may seem to be 'elite' or closed is simply because of the difficulty in getting a cohesive, affirmative action group organised - this is especially so in Australia, with it's myriad of weird and contradictory laws. You would see, even here, that there are wreckers who offer nothing positive - I have got into awful trouble myself on this site, and despite my pleas, been branded an elitist, along with others. Not too long ago, there was public meeting for reptile keepers in NSW, to discuss the coming minimum standards regulations. I didn't attend because I live 450ks from Sydney and couldn't get there, but from what I heard, the meeting was poorly attended. NPWS is within their rights to assess from this that reptile keepers don't really give a damn about what NPWS does - so in effect, we get the laws we deserve.
Well, do we think it's time to change this?
Anybody with even 2 brain cells, but a good, POSITIVE attitude, some ideas to throw around, a strong desire to change the way we do things, and above all PATIENCE, must be welcome to participate in brainstorming, lobbying... whatever it takes. This is a huge job, the wickets won't fall at the first ball, and you young buggers have got a lot more energy the we oldies have! I know Greg has mentioned to me privately (not sure if here) that this needs to involve not just reptile keepers, but those with an interest in all Australian fauna - reptiles, birds, mammals, amphibs, fish, possibly inverts and plants as well.
How do you tie a group like this together??? Any ideas?
Jamie.
Kristy and others, PLEASE don't think this action group is just for the 'big boys' - whatever that may mean. The reason that a few familiar names come up when this is discussed is because many of them are in frequent communication with each other, have known each other for years, and have a deep understanding and concern for not just the hobby/industry, but for our landscape and it's wildlife. Much of what has fuelled the debate between them has been the constant difficulties they face when dealing with surly, unwilling, uncooperative and even threatening bureaucrats, who see no good coming from the keeping of our native animals.
The reason this may seem to be 'elite' or closed is simply because of the difficulty in getting a cohesive, affirmative action group organised - this is especially so in Australia, with it's myriad of weird and contradictory laws. You would see, even here, that there are wreckers who offer nothing positive - I have got into awful trouble myself on this site, and despite my pleas, been branded an elitist, along with others. Not too long ago, there was public meeting for reptile keepers in NSW, to discuss the coming minimum standards regulations. I didn't attend because I live 450ks from Sydney and couldn't get there, but from what I heard, the meeting was poorly attended. NPWS is within their rights to assess from this that reptile keepers don't really give a damn about what NPWS does - so in effect, we get the laws we deserve.
Well, do we think it's time to change this?
Anybody with even 2 brain cells, but a good, POSITIVE attitude, some ideas to throw around, a strong desire to change the way we do things, and above all PATIENCE, must be welcome to participate in brainstorming, lobbying... whatever it takes. This is a huge job, the wickets won't fall at the first ball, and you young buggers have got a lot more energy the we oldies have! I know Greg has mentioned to me privately (not sure if here) that this needs to involve not just reptile keepers, but those with an interest in all Australian fauna - reptiles, birds, mammals, amphibs, fish, possibly inverts and plants as well.
How do you tie a group like this together??? Any ideas?
Jamie.
waruikazi
Legendary
Surely there are Aus fish, mammal and invert forums on the net. They would be good places to start.
My 0.2 cents....
I believe that it is enormously beneficial that these ideas are thrown around. Discussing such things opens the mind to different trains of thought and can only lead to good things.
I do believe, however, that conservation of each species is different to the other. An understanding of species ecology, state legislation, etc all interacts so that conservation initiatives need to be species specific.
While we can cite success stories such as the RSP and Foxtail palm, their story is different to the Oenpelli python and all other species in need of conservation.
I agree with the points made, having a captive Oenpelli population means that, in the event of endangerment, we have a potential and pre-emptive recovery population.
Again however, I reiterate what was said in my earlier posts, do we really know the species is in decline? I respect the anecdotal evidence given by some stating that they encounter fewer Nawaran these days. In contrast, we have the anecdotal evidence given by Gordo, stating that they are still reasonably abundant. I too, know two people, one that lives in the area, the other a guide, both of whom encounter the snakes (these are apparently the same individuals) and they occasionally see juveniles.
From my own experience, I have spent months in the stone country and never seen Nawaran. Based on my experience, I could conclude a low abundance. My point is that, (with all due respect to the people who have much more experience than me) without solid evidence, it seems tenuous to infer a decline based on little info.
Ideally, a captive breeding initiative should be run in conjunction with a field research programme on the species. It has been said that for various reasons the red-tape involved is too great to enable field research.
In contrast, I applied for permits to conduct a telemetry study of Nawaran in 2006. This was to be completed in Kakadu and from first impressions the idea was given a more positive reception than other species I have worked on in other states. Admittedly, the application didn’t go as far as consulting Traditional Owners, however, I see no reason why, without careful planning and TO involvement, this research cannot be carried out.
In the end I suspended the permit application as I was not in the right place in my life to commit to the project. I admit, sifting through the red-tape to conduct such as study would be great, however, that is reality.
With patience and communication anything can be done, and my point, is that from the Kakadu side at least, the authorities were extremely amiable about such a project. Conservation initiatives and subsequent breeding programmes will benefit greatly from sufficient population data, physiological knowledge and behaviour studies – information that cannot be gleaned from anecdotal reports.
Surely, such information gathering should occur before, or at least in conjunction with a breeding program.
Please do not flame me for what I have said. I have tried to make my comments as unbiased as possible and only in the best interests of this species.
Cheers,
Dan
I believe that it is enormously beneficial that these ideas are thrown around. Discussing such things opens the mind to different trains of thought and can only lead to good things.
I do believe, however, that conservation of each species is different to the other. An understanding of species ecology, state legislation, etc all interacts so that conservation initiatives need to be species specific.
While we can cite success stories such as the RSP and Foxtail palm, their story is different to the Oenpelli python and all other species in need of conservation.
I agree with the points made, having a captive Oenpelli population means that, in the event of endangerment, we have a potential and pre-emptive recovery population.
Again however, I reiterate what was said in my earlier posts, do we really know the species is in decline? I respect the anecdotal evidence given by some stating that they encounter fewer Nawaran these days. In contrast, we have the anecdotal evidence given by Gordo, stating that they are still reasonably abundant. I too, know two people, one that lives in the area, the other a guide, both of whom encounter the snakes (these are apparently the same individuals) and they occasionally see juveniles.
From my own experience, I have spent months in the stone country and never seen Nawaran. Based on my experience, I could conclude a low abundance. My point is that, (with all due respect to the people who have much more experience than me) without solid evidence, it seems tenuous to infer a decline based on little info.
Ideally, a captive breeding initiative should be run in conjunction with a field research programme on the species. It has been said that for various reasons the red-tape involved is too great to enable field research.
In contrast, I applied for permits to conduct a telemetry study of Nawaran in 2006. This was to be completed in Kakadu and from first impressions the idea was given a more positive reception than other species I have worked on in other states. Admittedly, the application didn’t go as far as consulting Traditional Owners, however, I see no reason why, without careful planning and TO involvement, this research cannot be carried out.
In the end I suspended the permit application as I was not in the right place in my life to commit to the project. I admit, sifting through the red-tape to conduct such as study would be great, however, that is reality.
With patience and communication anything can be done, and my point, is that from the Kakadu side at least, the authorities were extremely amiable about such a project. Conservation initiatives and subsequent breeding programmes will benefit greatly from sufficient population data, physiological knowledge and behaviour studies – information that cannot be gleaned from anecdotal reports.
Surely, such information gathering should occur before, or at least in conjunction with a breeding program.
Please do not flame me for what I have said. I have tried to make my comments as unbiased as possible and only in the best interests of this species.
Cheers,
Dan
Dan, first of all, thanks for this valuable contribution. At what level do you think such field study be? Honours, MSc, PhD? Alternatively, do you see a way for an individual or a group not enrolled in post-grad program carrying this work?
Cheers
Michael
Cheers
Michael
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Hi Dan,
I take all your points on board, and suggest that the debate on this thread may have been a bit Nawaran-centric, but only because it is a bit of an icon, and if, indeed, the population is declining, then it is a useful species to use as an example. However, as Gordo has pointed out, his anecdotal evidence differes from that of others, so who's to know?
It does seem possible, given the huge and demonstrated decline in the mammal population in the last 30 years in the Top End (and this began long before the arrival of Cane Toads), that large predators which utilise native mammals as a food source, would also suffer stress from a reduced food supply.
Jamie.
I take all your points on board, and suggest that the debate on this thread may have been a bit Nawaran-centric, but only because it is a bit of an icon, and if, indeed, the population is declining, then it is a useful species to use as an example. However, as Gordo has pointed out, his anecdotal evidence differes from that of others, so who's to know?
It does seem possible, given the huge and demonstrated decline in the mammal population in the last 30 years in the Top End (and this began long before the arrival of Cane Toads), that large predators which utilise native mammals as a food source, would also suffer stress from a reduced food supply.
Jamie.
Hi Mike,
Being affiliated with an institution will help - a lot! Studies could be ongoing and overlapping, therefore, there is scope for any level of study. Ideally, somebody intrinsically involved with this species and the area would be a great chief investigator - somebody like a Greg Miles/Gordo. I obviously cannot comment about these folk as I don't know them.
I would have thought that, if the species is in the decline postulated, that the NT government/TWP/Kakadu itself would have initiated something already.
Cheers,
Dan
Being affiliated with an institution will help - a lot! Studies could be ongoing and overlapping, therefore, there is scope for any level of study. Ideally, somebody intrinsically involved with this species and the area would be a great chief investigator - somebody like a Greg Miles/Gordo. I obviously cannot comment about these folk as I don't know them.
I would have thought that, if the species is in the decline postulated, that the NT government/TWP/Kakadu itself would have initiated something already.
Cheers,
Dan
Hi Jaime,
I completely agree. Common sense, if nothing else, suggests a decline, however, I would have thought that Nawaran would be in a better position than most to withstand such stochastic effects - but maybe not?
Regardless, we agree on the same things and the declining or not debate is irrelevant - the species needs to be studied.
Dan
I completely agree. Common sense, if nothing else, suggests a decline, however, I would have thought that Nawaran would be in a better position than most to withstand such stochastic effects - but maybe not?
Regardless, we agree on the same things and the declining or not debate is irrelevant - the species needs to be studied.
Dan
Hi Dan,
has Rick Shine got anyone up there or wanting to work there?
Otherwise, you two gentleman, would you like to become Dr. Miles and Dr. Gordo? Ohhh, Dr. Gordo has got a ring to it! lol
cheers
M
has Rick Shine got anyone up there or wanting to work there?
Otherwise, you two gentleman, would you like to become Dr. Miles and Dr. Gordo? Ohhh, Dr. Gordo has got a ring to it! lol
cheers
M
Kristy_07
Very Well-Known Member
Jamie, having established several NFP groups, I keenly understand the difficulties of such a venture. I understand and fully appreciate the knowledge of the key players, and that the whole idea has stemmed from their experiences and frustrations with the system. That said, the organisation of a successful action group requires a lot more than good intentions and enthusiasm. The most successful NFPs/action groups are those that understand and follow the practices of any other good business-charity.
If you're willing for this to involve others, that's great! I can understand your concerns about time-wasters and cynics, but by simply being discerning in who you include/exclude, you should be able to weed these people out fairly quickly. I think the first step is to establish what you want to achieve, at least initially, say, the next 2 years. I would think about why the group is forming. What's the desired outcome? Then I would write it down concisely. Once that's done, I'd go the forums that have been previously mentioned - native plants, animals, reptiles, conservation - and present the idea. Found out who is interested. Ask people to write down their expression of interest, along with what they think they could contribute to the cause - their degrees, experience, contacts, any other specifics. At the same time, I'd start researching what is already known, what other conservation projects are going on the area, etc. Good initial contacts would be any government departments that would have relevant knowledge, as well as national conservation groups like TWS and ACF. Find out what's already going on in these areas, so that you can then establish what needs to be done and by whom.
You're right - this is a huge job. These are just my ideas on how I've tackled the beginning stages of forming an action group in the past. Hope they are helpful.
I have recently been reading survey results that were conducted by the Wilderness Society here in WA on the Greater Western Woodlands. This is an area roughly between Norseman, Hyden and Esperance in WA and is recognized as the largest temperate woodland left on Earth. These results have prompted them into action and strategies have been put into place to safeguard the environment which contains several, at least vulnerably classified animals. It is my opinion that the Wilderness Society is a well respected organization, and the majority of the public will have at least heard of them, this essentially means there voice reaches further and more importantly into higher places. The study I have mentioned has relied on help from many experienced people from many backgrounds including herpetology, It makes sense to me that any affiliation with them would be advantageous, and as they already have a national network they could aid in facilitating the transition from forum discussion to an effective lobby group.
This is purely speculative on my part and I have never had anything to do with the Wilderness Society, But wouldn't it be more effective for a couple of respected people in the Herpetelogical community to lobby like minded groups that have similar ideals, than to try and lobby against our government directly. That's not to say the group shouldn't be formed just that a helping hand wouldn't hurt.
Steve
Yeah Kristy more or less got everything I said and more in her post. LOL
This is purely speculative on my part and I have never had anything to do with the Wilderness Society, But wouldn't it be more effective for a couple of respected people in the Herpetelogical community to lobby like minded groups that have similar ideals, than to try and lobby against our government directly. That's not to say the group shouldn't be formed just that a helping hand wouldn't hurt.
Steve
Yeah Kristy more or less got everything I said and more in her post. LOL
Kristy_07
Very Well-Known Member
I agree with you, Steve. It would seem easier to "tack on" to other conservation efforts, if the possibility to do that is there.
I have worked for TWS. If you'd like to be in contact with them, I can help with that, as well. The campaigners are very switched on.
I have worked for TWS. If you'd like to be in contact with them, I can help with that, as well. The campaigners are very switched on.
Slickturtle
Not so new Member
Hello Pythoninfinite
This is what I have written about what you call Reputable Breeders in my essay on the topic of Captive breeding as a Conservation Tool:
2. At the opposite end of the spectrum I propose a new, top rung in the Wildlife Keepers hierarchy as defined by the various state wildlife agencies. I propose a new classification called Conservation Keepers. These highly experienced and motivated people will be like auxiliaries to the Parks and Wildlife Service itself. They will be the first recipients of rare and endangered species for captive breeding and will not engage in any form of hybridization of target species. They will work hand in hand with the biologists, permits and compliance people in the park service. Ultimately the young animals produced by Conservation Keepers can be on sold to people in the next most senior level in the Wildlife Keepers hierarchy. Sales may well be facilitated or overseen through the Parks and Wildlife bureaucracy. The Conservation Keepers will be clear beneficiaries of these sales. Conservation keepers will be totally unlike conventional pet owners.
This is what I have written about what you call Reputable Breeders in my essay on the topic of Captive breeding as a Conservation Tool:
2. At the opposite end of the spectrum I propose a new, top rung in the Wildlife Keepers hierarchy as defined by the various state wildlife agencies. I propose a new classification called Conservation Keepers. These highly experienced and motivated people will be like auxiliaries to the Parks and Wildlife Service itself. They will be the first recipients of rare and endangered species for captive breeding and will not engage in any form of hybridization of target species. They will work hand in hand with the biologists, permits and compliance people in the park service. Ultimately the young animals produced by Conservation Keepers can be on sold to people in the next most senior level in the Wildlife Keepers hierarchy. Sales may well be facilitated or overseen through the Parks and Wildlife bureaucracy. The Conservation Keepers will be clear beneficiaries of these sales. Conservation keepers will be totally unlike conventional pet owners.
Slickturtle
Not so new Member
Hi Darlyn
HHHmmmm! Steve ..... I am not sure if I know him, I know a Steve ****** and a Steve ##### but I am not sure about Steve....!!
If he comes along to the Field Naturalists Club meeting tomorrow night at the CDU I will get to know him. I am giving a talk there on Captive Breeding as a Conservation Tool at 7:30, see
NT Field Naturalists and look under "meetings and Outings", i will be talking about Oenpelli Pythons (believe it or not) How about coming along yourself - the more the better.
Cheers
Slick
HHHmmmm! Steve ..... I am not sure if I know him, I know a Steve ****** and a Steve ##### but I am not sure about Steve....!!
If he comes along to the Field Naturalists Club meeting tomorrow night at the CDU I will get to know him. I am giving a talk there on Captive Breeding as a Conservation Tool at 7:30, see
NT Field Naturalists and look under "meetings and Outings", i will be talking about Oenpelli Pythons (believe it or not) How about coming along yourself - the more the better.
Cheers
Slick
longirostris
Active Member
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Hi Slick,
I have been having trouble with my computer so have not been able to post. The thread has moved on considerably since my last post. Not so theological and philosophical now and far more pragmatic which is a good thing. I did enjoy the earlier strain of the thread though it was very thought provoking. Speaking of which here is a comment and question for you.
Having tried unsuccessfully over a period of many years to access rare captive bred progeny from government and quasi government institutions I have become increasingly frustrated with the ridiculous attitude of virtually all state authorities and the people that work within those institutions towards private keepers.
I like your ideas about establishing keeper categories with the highest echelons of those categories being asked by relevant state authorities to paticipate in conservation programs that they may be interested in. I have been thinking about something along these lines myself for the last few years.
I would love to hear what your thoughts are on the experience/qualifications that would be needed for a private keeper like myself to be considered as a conservation keeper.
I have been having trouble with my computer so have not been able to post. The thread has moved on considerably since my last post. Not so theological and philosophical now and far more pragmatic which is a good thing. I did enjoy the earlier strain of the thread though it was very thought provoking. Speaking of which here is a comment and question for you.
Having tried unsuccessfully over a period of many years to access rare captive bred progeny from government and quasi government institutions I have become increasingly frustrated with the ridiculous attitude of virtually all state authorities and the people that work within those institutions towards private keepers.
I like your ideas about establishing keeper categories with the highest echelons of those categories being asked by relevant state authorities to paticipate in conservation programs that they may be interested in. I have been thinking about something along these lines myself for the last few years.
I would love to hear what your thoughts are on the experience/qualifications that would be needed for a private keeper like myself to be considered as a conservation keeper.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Thanks for the input all - till tomorrow - the social secretary is home now, so she's demanding some attention - fair enough I suppose...
Jamie.
Jamie.
Slickturtle
Not so new Member
Hi all
We seem to have got bogged down on the issue of whether or not the Oenpelli Python is in decline. And we could be talking about any rare and unknown vertebrate here.
In my view this is not so very important. Look at it this way - if it is in decline and there are only a few left then it is a thing of urgency that we get them out and into safe custody. This is what Prof. Sam Sweet, UCLA, Santa Barbara, California (one of the worlds most experienced field biologists and herpetologists - he just described a new Varanus from Indonesia) said on the topic of the Oenpelli. (I might add that he has spent 2 full years {10 years apart} working every day in the Kakadu sandstone and never saw one) :
"There is strong evidence that something is wrong with the stone country and its wet forests, as well-evidenced by the decline in small mammals there. Since Oenpellis, at least as adults, seem keyed in on mammals including bats, it would be reasonable to express concerns about what is happening at the top of the predator pyramid. Is it more, or less acute for pythons in their first couple of years? No one really knows, but adult snakes certainly have more savvy about their home ranges, and of course can go longer between meals. What is known about trends in bat diversity, particularly the crevice-roosting bentwings and horsehoe bats? My concerns would be that the increasing rarity of many small mammals could cut into the reproductive frequency and clutch sizes of adult pythons, and more insidiously make life a great deal harder for juveniles. If this is 'not' so, then concerns about removing some subadult snakes from the wild are lessened, whereas if it is, we could find ourselves in the situation where juvenile survivorship has fallen below a sustainable level, but you'll not know that until the adults die of old age. This is exactly the circumstance that was behind decisions to take species such as whooping cranes and condors into captivity in the US. We are still not out of the woods with these species principally because the world has changed around them -- the old, experienced birds could still make it, but the juveniles cannot, without massive assistance. In these and other cases the captive flocks are insurance, and provide a stream of hopeful youngsters that mostly still all die because the environmental wrongs persist. You are going for a type of insurance involving a diffuse private sector."
So, if the snakes are on their way out and only a few are left, then we should save the species by bringing it in to safe custody for captive breeding, if nothing else it gives us a chance of reintroduction if we can work out what is wrong out there in the bush. If on the other hand it is not rare and the numbers are good - there is no reason why not to bring some in and get them started in captive breeding. It is the same answer if they are in modest numbers but maybe in decline - bring some in. In others words regardless of whether they are in decline or not, there is no good reason why you would NOT bring some into captive care. If there is, can someone please explain it to me?
Cheers
Slick
We seem to have got bogged down on the issue of whether or not the Oenpelli Python is in decline. And we could be talking about any rare and unknown vertebrate here.
In my view this is not so very important. Look at it this way - if it is in decline and there are only a few left then it is a thing of urgency that we get them out and into safe custody. This is what Prof. Sam Sweet, UCLA, Santa Barbara, California (one of the worlds most experienced field biologists and herpetologists - he just described a new Varanus from Indonesia) said on the topic of the Oenpelli. (I might add that he has spent 2 full years {10 years apart} working every day in the Kakadu sandstone and never saw one) :
"There is strong evidence that something is wrong with the stone country and its wet forests, as well-evidenced by the decline in small mammals there. Since Oenpellis, at least as adults, seem keyed in on mammals including bats, it would be reasonable to express concerns about what is happening at the top of the predator pyramid. Is it more, or less acute for pythons in their first couple of years? No one really knows, but adult snakes certainly have more savvy about their home ranges, and of course can go longer between meals. What is known about trends in bat diversity, particularly the crevice-roosting bentwings and horsehoe bats? My concerns would be that the increasing rarity of many small mammals could cut into the reproductive frequency and clutch sizes of adult pythons, and more insidiously make life a great deal harder for juveniles. If this is 'not' so, then concerns about removing some subadult snakes from the wild are lessened, whereas if it is, we could find ourselves in the situation where juvenile survivorship has fallen below a sustainable level, but you'll not know that until the adults die of old age. This is exactly the circumstance that was behind decisions to take species such as whooping cranes and condors into captivity in the US. We are still not out of the woods with these species principally because the world has changed around them -- the old, experienced birds could still make it, but the juveniles cannot, without massive assistance. In these and other cases the captive flocks are insurance, and provide a stream of hopeful youngsters that mostly still all die because the environmental wrongs persist. You are going for a type of insurance involving a diffuse private sector."
So, if the snakes are on their way out and only a few are left, then we should save the species by bringing it in to safe custody for captive breeding, if nothing else it gives us a chance of reintroduction if we can work out what is wrong out there in the bush. If on the other hand it is not rare and the numbers are good - there is no reason why not to bring some in and get them started in captive breeding. It is the same answer if they are in modest numbers but maybe in decline - bring some in. In others words regardless of whether they are in decline or not, there is no good reason why you would NOT bring some into captive care. If there is, can someone please explain it to me?
Cheers
Slick
Slickturtle
Not so new Member
The one with the eyes picked out was given to me by a young lady tour guide, I forwarded it on the the Park. It was not very long. She found the poor thing in the middle of the day haplessly wandering about in the Nourlangie Rock car park. It was lucky it wasn't run over. The guide knew exactly what the snake was - which is a big credit to her. She said it was Blue Winged Kookaburras that did the damage!
Cheers
Cheers
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