Rock Python

[Slickturtle]

Spot on Steve. The environmental groups are on our list of people to be brought in - and the Threatened Species Network. The key thing is that it is difficult for all these specialised groups to see the big picture. Ie to put it at its most simplistic - "Australia is under environmental siege and the natural world is diminishing. There has now been time enough to show that the legal and policy framework sponsored by state and Federal agencies is failing to protect species. The only real hope for change lies in the private sector. This include NGO land owners such as Bush Heritage and the Aust Wildlife Conservancy and others, but it also includes academics, biologists, zoos and wildlife parks and finally and importantly 'us' - keen and concerned Australian Wildlife Keepers. All these private sector agencies need to come together to help the Government agencies who are now clearly on the bones of their bums when it comes to saving wildlife. How to get all these people around the same table is the BIG question. I can ultimately see a coalition of experts like this actually leading Government policy rather than being directed by it. A big ask you think? Sure it is but you don't know what can be done if you don't give it a go.

Cheers

Slick

 

[Kristy_07]

Greg, have you checked out TWS's Wild Country campaign. It is the direction that TWS intend to focus a lot more on than only specific sites, and incorporates a lot of "big picture" science.

The Wilderness Society — WildCountry Vision

 

[waruikazi]

Dr. Gordo... I like it.

Unfortunately for the West Arnhem plateau my background is in education not science. Is there room for those without science backgrounds in these kinds of studies?

Michael i know you have done some work into chondros, fancy expanding your horizons to my backyard?

Hi Dan,
has Rick Shine got anyone up there or wanting to work there?
Otherwise, you two gentleman, would you like to become Dr. Miles and Dr. Gordo? Ohhh, Dr. Gordo has got a ring to it! lol

cheers
M

 

[Waterrat]

Dr. Gordo... I like it.

Michael i know you have done some work into chondros, fancy expanding your horizons to my backyard?

Ha, ha, actually, I have dome my post-grad studies on Pebble-mound mice (Pseudomys patrius) - my friends used to laugh, saying, "you're studying what you used to feed to your snakes".

There you go Dr. Gordo

 

[Bushfire]

Hey Greg,
This is turning into a familiar thread from a few months ago. As I said back then it is a big ask but is one that really needs to be questioned and brought in from the dark. I like your idea and believe thats how we should go but still dont know how to get those who should implement changes to actually do it. Unfortunately I'm betting that the idea is too radical for many groups to get there head around. Most of those environmental groups probably would prefer to channel their efforts through habitat restoration projects. Alot have brought the idea that native animal keepers (read private sector) are one step better than smugglers and poachers.

We have systematically failed the environment to the point that realistically it simply isn't possible to restore it. The absolute best we can hope for is that we dont lose too many species till we get to the point of what we can maintain. Sadly at the speed at which most if any changes happen these days we are going to lose a hell of a lot more.

 

[waruikazi]

I'm sure we have mice in Gunbalanya.... lol

Ha, ha, actually, I have dome my post-grad studies on Pebble-mound mice (Pseudomys patrius) - my friends used to laugh, saying, "you're studying what you used to feed to your snakes".

There you go Dr. Gordo

 

[cement]

Has anyone here been to the Calga Wildlife Park here on the Central Coast. It is a large privately owned property that has an enormous feral proof fence around it and supports native wildlife by ensuring that the habitat within the fence-line is devoid of feral plants and animals. They are having success with some species that have been grown up in the park and released into areas of declining numbers. I can't give specifics as i don't know the full facts, but it is dedicated to ALL native animals, mammals, reptiles, birds etc.
This is another avenue. By setting up smaller feral proof habitats within the local habitat where the animals can be bred in captivity in the confines of dwellings and buildings and also having the land open for the animals that also live in the surrounding landscape.
People can visit, make donations etc, learn about the habitat and its animals and go for a bushwalk and bbq.

On another branch of the tree, Is it possible that a national association is maybe setting the sights too high at this stage?
Could we be better off setting up state associations first, mainly due to travel constraints, cost and different state laws, who are affiliated with each other with a national body as a goal further down the path?

 

[Slickturtle]

A general note to all -

A few people have kindly sent me PM's. I have tried to answer each one but for some reason I get messages back saying it did not get through and I have to talk to Santa or someone to get it fixed. So if you have sent me something and not heard back I am sorry but I think it is because I am too old to work in forums or should it be fora?

Similarly - some people want to be my friend; but I don't know what that means - Is it catching? I am not on Face Book - does that make me an anti-geek?

I have a lot to learn.

Thanks

Slick

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi Cement - friend of Huey

I wonder if Calga is Barry and Adam Cohen's place. They would be good people to have on side. Thanks for the tip.
Cheers

Slick

 

[Kristy_07]

You're the best, mate

 

[Slickturtle]

Thanks Kristy

You are in the know!

Cheers

Slick

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Those who support the taking-into-captivity-for-reasons-of-securing-species argument should all be mindful of what bushfire has said. It isn't only clumsy and primitive-thinking bureaucracies who will oppose the notion, there are all the animal rights groups and allied organisations who will be outraged by the prospect. They are VERY politically savvy, well entrenched in government already, and are very well funded. They oppose what we are doing NOW, and will definitely be motivated to act against any move to take more of our animals into captivity. They toil away in the background, using the cover of 'welfare' (which has little to do with 'rights').

We need to present our arguments with as much energy and zeal as they do to prosecute their own idealogical points of view.

Jamie.

 

[Waterrat]

There is something that crossed my mind; this thread spins around the Oenpelli python and even there we can't decide (we don't know) if it's endangered or not. My question is, how many other species of reptiles and which ones would we mark as suitable to take into captivity for conservation breeding? Surely, we wouldn't go by their conservations status, which in most cases is a joke, so what criteria would we use?

Michael

 

[waruikazi]

Surely you would need to look at suitability to a captive environment. For example, keeping leather back turtles in captive populations probably wouldn't be a feasible option. But if we are talking about conservation breeding the conservation status would have to be paramount in selecting animals. If it isn't then the beauocracy will tear holes in the idea.

There is something that crossed my mind; this thread spins around the Oenpelli python and even there we can't decide (we don't know) if it's endangered or not. My question is, how many other species of reptiles and which ones would we mark as suitable to take into captivity for conservation breeding? Surely, we wouldn't go by their conservations status, which in most cases is a joke, so what criteria would we use?

Michael

 

[Waterrat]

Here is an example Gordo: Native GTP's conservation status has been recently changed from rare to near threatened. Not that they are near threatened, the rare status was crapped, it's no longer applied as such. The species is perfectly safe and there is no doubt about it. The entire population is withing NP, which is buffered by more NP through different forest types, there is no evidence of decline and given the current prices poaching is not viable.

The two endemic reptiles inhabiting Black Mountain near Cooktown have very limited distribution but are they in any sort of danger? I am sure you could think of many more examples in your neck of woods, so which species would qualify?

 

[Wild~Touch]

This coming Sunday July 18th, Wildlife Preservation Society of Queensland are holding a a wildlife expo at Beaudesert SE Qld

(and yes there will be a reptile display at this venue).
Go to their website to see a schedule of events: Wildlife Preservation Society of Queensland
I beleive there will be one or two influential people participating in this event

As the old saying goes, "scratch my back and I will scratch yours" If we reptile keepers support this group I am sure they will support our cause

Cheers
Sandee

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi Hydromys

here is what I wrote in my essay about what you raise here: -
There is a need to develop the lists of animals which may or may not be the subject of captive breeding. There will be 4 categories each within the groupings of birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians and fishes: -
1. Those animals which are secure and not in need of captive breeding intervention. This does not mean that people should not keep them if they wish. These may be the animals with which children, within families, begin their keeping careers.
2. Those animals in need of intervention but which have specialised captive needs and are generally beyond the abilities of private keepers. These animals could be the focus the major zoos, wildlife parks and the AWC. These would include species such as Tassie Devils, Platypus, cassowaries, raptors and koalas.
3. Those animals which are small and ‘uncharismatic’ and would not (for the most part) be sought after by private keepers. In the reptile world these would be many of the smaller skinks and maybe blind snakes. This is not to say that there would not be a thriving Blind Snake Keepers Association in the future!
4. Finally, and the primary focus of this exercise, are those animals which are suitable for captive living, are in need of conservation intervention and are desirable/rewarding to keep. These are the primary ‘target species’. Permits to take, keep and breed Target Species would not be given out willie nillie. Only people with demonstrable experience and skill (Conservation Keepers) would be permitted to take and keep ‘high value” target species such as Oenpelli Pythons or Egernia obiri (if it is still extant.) Each state would have an expert peer committee which would oversee high end permit applications in concert with the relevant park agency. The Park official need not have the final say.

There is something that crossed my mind; this thread spins around the Oenpelli python and even there we can't decide (we don't know) if it's endangered or not. My question is, how many other species of reptiles and which ones would we mark as suitable to take into captivity for conservation breeding? Surely, we wouldn't go by their conservations status, which in most cases is a joke, so what criteria would we use?

Michael

 

[waruikazi]

I do understand what you are saying. But you know aswell as i do that there is more to an animals conservation status than just the labels vunerable, endagered and critically endangered. For those who don't know to qualify a particular Australian conservation status the animal only has to qualify in one of the set criteria. So it is possible for an animal to be listed as critically endangered without it being under any past, present or future reduction in numbers.

Hrmmmm i appear to have just argued in agreement with what you have been saying Michael. Maybe the individual categories should be looked at when selecting which animals need saving.

Here is an example Gordo: Native GTP's conservation status has been recently changed from rare to near threatened. Not that they are near threatened, the rare status was crapped, it's no longer applied as such. The species is perfectly safe and there is no doubt about it. The entire population is withing NP, which is buffered by more NP through different forest types, there is no evidence of decline and given the current prices poaching is not viable.

The two endemic reptiles inhabiting Black Mountain near Cooktown have very limited distribution but are they in any sort of danger? I am sure you could think of many more examples in your neck of woods, so which species would qualify?

 

[Slickturtle]

Yes bredislave, you are absolutely right. It is critically important that we get all these environmental groups on side. I am sure that they would support what we are talking about here if they knew the Big Picture. As I said earlier not many people "get it" yet. Our job is largely a public awareness campaign so that like minded people and this includes Wildlife Carers can see what we can see. I have even been writing to PETA in the US and the RSPCA to explain to them that we are all moving into a new world of "Captivity or Extinction" for many species. I put it on the table and asked "Do you prefer extinction over quality captivity for ,say, quolls. This sends even animal rights groups into a tailspin of moral anguish. I had a great email discussion with one of the principle public relations officers of PETA In LA USA along these lines. She ended up declaring that she loved me!! I don't know if that progressed the debate much but it was an interesting outcome.

Cheers

Slick

 

[Waterrat]

Slick and Gordo, I take on board what's in front of me. I just thought that in case of reptiles particularly, the list will be very short.

Gordo, the status is often slapped onto a species based on wrong data / evidence percieved by the bureaucrats but not backed up by scientists. I keep my eyes on GTPs closely and one of the blunders the QPWS has done when assessing it against the criteria, they assumed that the population consists of less that 3000 adults. What a .....! Makes you wonder if they bothered to read Dave Wilson's papers. The other criteria was poaching - I commented on that above.