Rock Python

[Waterrat]

That's great to toss these ideas around though. Thanks for bringing it up anouc - good to have a lower in the house. lol

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Gordo, if the collection of the last pair of pythons causes a local extinction of that species, then that is precisely why they should be taken into captivity. Their chances of maintaining the population of 2 in the wild is slim indeed, if it is environmental factors that are exterminating them. The chances of breeding, hatching eggs, and then the survival of the youngsters is probably nil. In captivity with proper husbandry, high hatch rate for eggs and often almost 100% survival rates for neonates, the chances for the survival of the species are vastly improved.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we breed for release back into habitat at this point in time, at least until we know what factors are causing the problems in the first place and can address them. This is the same with all recovery programs - get the animals into a secure situation, fix the habitat, then release them back into the habitat. Even flinty WA has had some success with Numbats, Woilies (and even SW Carpet Pythons) at Dryandra Reserve, south of Perth), but only after significant changes to the environment - removal of foxes, cats etc...

Similarly with the RSP - a snake with very specialised and limited habitat (in the wild) - if anything happens to that habitat, at least we have the species secure in captivity, and who knows what we can do in the future to restore the habitat to its former usefulness?

I suspect that anyone involved with the capture and breeding of rare or endangered fauna will have to jump through many flaming hoops to prove their credentials, so the chances of early profiteering is likely to be very slim. Of course it is very likely that some oenpellis are out there in the care of private keepers, here or overseas, it would be naive to believe otherwise, but the profile of this animal in particular (and there are others) would make it impossible to move them without setting off very loud alarm bells. It would be exactly the same for V. keithhornei from Cape York. Some people may profit from them in the longer term, but those involved in any recovery program would have serious obligations to fulfil long before they could be sold for profit. This was the case with John Weigel and the RSP, and he did it well.

Jamie.

 

[Laghairt]

That's great to toss these ideas around though. Thanks for bringing it up anouc - good to have a lower in the house. lol

LOL, I wish things were different but that's the reality we face.

 

[waruikazi]

I'm not basing my argument on the idea that collecting a couple of animals will cause localised extinction. My point with that statement is that we know nothing about Nawarans and before we can launch into a conservation plan driven by keepers and the pet trade we need to know more about them. Even the Authority that you referred me to explicitly states in his publications that there has been no assessments on total population size or trends in abundance and there have been NO detailed studies into its ecology.

I'll go back to the original discussion that you and i had. We do not know that this species' population is in decline.

Gordo, if the collection of the last pair of pythons causes a local extinction of that species, then that is precisely why they should be taken into captivity. Their chances of maintaining the population of 2 in the wild is slim indeed, if it is environmental factors that are exterminating them. The chances of breeding, hatching eggs, and then the survival of the youngsters is probably nil. In captivity with proper husbandry, high hatch rate for eggs and often almost 100% survival rates for neonates, the chances for the survival of the species are vastly improved.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we breed for release back into habitat at this point in time, at least until we know what factors are causing the problems in the first place and can address them. This is the same with all recovery programs - get the animals into a secure situation, fix the habitat, then release them back into the habitat. Even flinty WA has had some success with Numbats, Woilies (and even SW Carpet Pythons) at Dryandra Reserve, south of Perth), but only after significant changes to the environment - removal of foxes, cats etc...

Similarly with the RSP - a snake with very specialised and limited habitat (in the wild) - if anything happens to that habitat, at least we have the species secure in captivity, and who knows what we can do in the future to restore the habitat to its former usefulness?

I suspect that anyone involved with the capture and breeding of rare or endangered fauna will have to jump through many flaming hoops to prove their credentials, so the chances of early profiteering is likely to be very slim. Of course it is very likely that some oenpellis are out there in the care of private keepers, here or overseas, it would be naive to believe otherwise, but the profile of this animal in particular (and there are others) would make it impossible to move them without setting off very loud alarm bells. It would be exactly the same for V. keithhornei from Cape York. Some people may profit from them in the longer term, but those involved in any recovery program would have serious obligations to fulfil long before they could be sold for profit. This was the case with John Weigel and the RSP, and he did it well.

Jamie.

 

[Waterrat]

Gordo, Farma touched on the subject of pet trade, etc., and I said he is brave because this will open up a can of worms. It is absolutely essential not to mix this or any other conservation oriented ideas, and hopefully projects at later stage, with the pet industry. This game will require different players with no ties to morphing, hybridizing, etc., and the dissemination of captive bred progeny will have to be carefully thought out to make sure that the mighty $ is not the main motivation.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I'm sure you will find that anecdotally, from people who have been around that part of the territory for decades, that it is indeed, in decline. I don't dispute that there is little documented info to back up claims such as this.

I think the focus here has been on the oenpelli because it was the thread starter, and it is something that is known to experienced keepers, and has a captive history which proves that the power of the law can be very damaging when applied without serious thought. The oenpelli story mught be quite different if Peter Krauss had been creditied for what he did with them, and the animals confiscated from him weren't consigned to the dustbin of history by moving them to the TWP. Of course there are many other species equally deserving of our attention, and there are lots of keepers out there with niche interests who are interested in the animals, not the dollar. The pet trade is WAY down the track at this point in time, should NEVER be included in any debate at this stage.

I've never suggested that the RSP story is a win for conservation, simply, it's a win for the species. There's a big difference.

Jamie.

 

[waruikazi]

I agree completely. I don't think i worded my first response real well but how you and Josh put it is pretty well how i feel on the topic.

Gordo, Farma touched on the subject of pet trade, etc., and I said he is brave because this will open up a can of worms. It is absolutely essential not to mix this or any other conservation oriented ideas, and hopefully projects at later stage, with the pet industry. This game will require different players with no ties to morphing, hybridizing, etc., and the dissemination of captive bred progeny will have to be carefully thought out to make sure that the mighty $ is not the main motivation.

 

[waruikazi]

I feel a sense of De`Javu coming on lol. The stories i have been told by the people who live in the escarpment country is that they are still in good numbers.

I just want to make it clear that i am not a god of the gaps. I understand fully that no evidence doesn't mean that everything is all good on the West Arnhem plateau. It just means that we don't know. The idea that they are in decline is not something that i am dismissing, it is entirely possible that they are on the brink of extinction. The problem is we don't know and before we/the authorities etc can devise a conservation plan there needs to be extensive research. Just as an FYI that is actually the reccomendations for a conservation plan by Woinarski, extensive research.

I'm sure you will find that anecdotally, from people who have been around that part of the territory for decades, that it is indeed, in decline. I don't dispute that there is little documented info to back up claims such as this.

I think the focus here has been on the oenpelli because it was the thread starter, and it is something that is known to experienced keepers, and has a captive history which proves that the power of the law can be very damaging when applied without serious thought. The oenpelli story mught be quite different if Peter Krauss had been creditied for what he did with them, and the animals confiscated from him weren't consigned to the dustbin of history by moving them to the TWP. Of course there are many other species equally deserving of our attention, and there are lots of keepers out there with niche interests who are interested in the animals, not the dollar. The pet trade is WAY down the track at this point in time, should NEVER be included in any debate at this stage.

I've never suggested that the RSP story is a win for conservation, simply, it's a win for the species. There's a big difference.

Jamie.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

OK, I know what you are saying, and I agree with it to a very large extent. Either way in my opinion, if it is in decline, it should be taken into captivity and intensively bred if it is possible. Likewise, if it is in 'good numbers' (and your info may well be better than mine Gordo), a strategy such as that used on the RSP would do no harm to the population, and would be likely to reduce the potential for poaching from the wild. Why bother going to the expense of trying to collect them from the wild when there is (it seems from what I hear) very little chance of success, when you can buy one from a reputable breeder?

Having spent most of my working life in a research institution, I understand the importance of most research. But I have seen huge mounts of time and money wasted on 'research' that ends up leading nowhere. I'm not for a moment suggesting that Mr Woinarski is in that basket (indeed all my colleagues have a very high opinion of him and his work). A lot of the stuff done in many institutions is driven by ego.

I'll add more this arvo - I have some thoughts on the 'reputable breeder' thing and the fact that all keepers/breeders are lumped together by the Oz bureaucracies - there is no 'elite' (for want of a better word) status to aspire to, which marks a person as an ethical, technically competent fauna keeper.

Jamie.

 

[Waterrat]

a strategy such as that used on the RSP would do no harm to the population, and would be likely to reduce the potential for poaching from the wild. Why bother going to the expense of trying to collect them from the wild when there is (it seems from what I hear) very little chance of success, when you can buy one from a reputable breeder?

That resonates the case of native GTPs and of course the RSP.

 

[waruikazi]

Just incase anyone is interested this is the book that Jamie and i have been quoting. http://www.nt.gov.au/nreta/wildlife/animals/threatened/pdf/lostflyer.pdf#search="lost"

It is not specific on the oenpelli python but is more of a reference book with profiles of all the vunerable flora and fauna of the NT which includes descriptions, ecology, distribution, conservation and threats. 288 pages long for $25, not a bad price if you're interested in this sort of thing.

 

[Slickturtle]

Thanks for that Greg,

There has been lots of talk about a reptile keepers' overseeing body in the past few years, the NRKA has actually been incorporated in NSW, and there is a group of people very keen to get the show on the road.It is likely that there will be some movement here in NSW in the next few weeks, perhaps a public get-together to get an idea of the issues we face and ideas about how to best structure the beast.

One of the reasons for the slow progress here has been the DECCW initiative regarding minimum standards legislation - it has bee on the go for almost 2 years now, and has taken a great deal of time from the individuals who have an interest in both the legislation and the keepers' association. Far from being resolved at this point in time, NPWS has become totally secretive about what they propose to drop into the reptile keeping equation in this state (other than indicating that enclosure sizes will be MANDATORY (we don't know what sizes they propose to enforce, or where their advice is coming from...)

This represents a move into a new area of management for NPWS here in NSW - a new way to increase the already significant bureaucratic pressure on reptile keepers.

So, until we can see what is in store for us here, there isn't much time for anything else...

Watch this space though...

Jamie.

Well,

This sounds like to ideal time to let them know that moves are afoot to form a national body. A body which will take a proactive role in both state and Federal issues.

Slick

 

[Slickturtle]

Yeeaaar Wriggles - you are right. Maybe Gonself has Goneoff!

Cheers

Slick

what about goneself though, did he actually purchase that 'rock python' he was offered??...

 

[Kristy_07]

From the PMs I've been receiving since yesterday afternoon, it sounds as though this is a movement for "the big boys" only, at this stage. I hope, down the track, there is the opportunity for others to be involved, as well.

 

[waruikazi]

Maybe you could affiliate yourself with one of the big boys? But i think your biggest problem will be living in Vietnam!

From the PMs I've been receiving since yesterday afternoon, it sounds as though this is a movement for "the big boys" only, at this stage. I hope, down the track, there is the opportunity for others to be involved, as well.

 

[jahan]

From the PMs I've been receiving since yesterday afternoon, it sounds as though this is a movement for "the big boys" only, at this stage. I hope, down the track, there is the opportunity for others to be involved, as well.

Always has been and always will be. Who`s going to listen to a nobody? If these people dont do it I don`t see anyone else doing anything about it.

 

[Kristy_07]

Maybe you could affiliate yourself with one of the big boys? But i think your biggest problem will be living in Vietnam!

Maybe you? Being that I'm in NGO/NFP comms & marketing (including such technologies as "the internet"), and that my contacts in enviro law & legislation are all in Oz, I wouldn't have thought me being in Vietnam for another 10-12mths was that big a hurdle.

 

[waruikazi]

Maybe me... (lol that's a joke, i don't count myself as being anywhere near the 'big boys' i'm just noisy and don't mind having an argument.)

With qualifications like your i would definately encourage you to affiliate yourself with someone because i think you would be an asset in any conservation movement.

My remoteness will probably count me out of this captive conservation buisiness. Although i am working on something that will aid, i think dramatically, in conservation albeit different to what has been discussed here.

Maybe you? Being that I'm in NGO/NFP comms & marketing (including such technologies as "the internet"), and that my contacts in enviro law & legislation are all in Oz, I wouldn't have thought me being in Vietnam for another 10-12mths was that big a hurdle.

 

[waruikazi]

This thread has really sparked a bit of interest for me, so instead of listening to hearsay i rang the people who are in the know.

The TWP has had four nawarans over the years. Kraus's 2 and 2 other animals brought into care.

Kraus's 2 have both died. The first one was euthed because of cancer and the second was taken to a convention several years ago where it caught an infectious disease and died a few months later. A third animal was brought into care after it was run over but looked like it may survive but unfortunately it didn't.

The final one was an animal that had its eyes pecked out by birds. This animal is still alive and is the one that they have on display. There was no mention of the 2 hatchlings.

There is a conservation plan and a plan to get them into the pet trade.

 

[Kristy_07]

That's great info. Is the conservation plan public?