White lipped pythons.

[Newhere]

I hope we never find out where they come from, would be a shame if there was only a small population left in aus and poachers found out where to find em, keep it all secret I reckon and let them have their privacy

 

[junglepython2]

I dare say the chances of these snakes having an Australian origin are next to nil and there is no need to worry about remote islands being poached.

 

[champagne]

They are from Australian origin... Maybe more project would be made public if people didnt start commenting that everything is smuggled when they don't know the full story.

 

[solar 17]

No mystery and no one in the know is upset, just amused about the try hards trying to cause trouble, its just not any ones business. Not my story to tell either.
There are a number of old school herpers out there that have very little at all to do with the herp scene these days because of the direction it has gone with jags and all the cross bred rubbish etc. Some of these guys have been keeping special stuff for years that no one has a clue about. Why??? because its no ones business but their own. Simple.

This post hit the nail on the head. solar 17 ~B~

 

[junglepython2]

They are from Australian origin... Maybe more project would be made public if people didnt start commenting that everything is smuggled when they don't know the full story.

I never said they were smuggled. If these ones are of Australian origin (with a genuine aussie locale which I find very hard to believe) that would be quite remarkable as I didn't think there were even any official records of them being here. So great news if true. Either way you would imagine the legality of them would be air tight for them to have pictures released. Regardless of their origin poaching won't be an issue as it would be easier and cheaper for 'others' to smuggle more onto the books rather then poach once they have been distributed to enough keepers. Which was my main point.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

No mystery and no one in the know is upset, just amused about the try hards trying to cause trouble, its just not any ones business. Not my story to tell either.
There are a number of old school herpers out there that have very little at all to do with the herp scene these days because of the direction it has gone with jags and all the cross bred rubbish etc. Some of these guys have been keeping special stuff for years that no one has a clue about. Why??? because its no ones business but their own. Simple.

With all due respect TB (and I mean that sincerely), if WLPs had been in collections "for (enough) years" they would surely have been more available by now. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the last amnesty was in 1997 (17 years ago) and the only states that allow legal collecting are WA & the NT, They are certainly not on the WA list and have never been found there, and I'd bet both my balls they weren't found in the NT. If they were from stock originally declared in the last amnesty the original snakes must be in wheelchairs by now. NSW did allow some species to be included on the list of permitted species without sighting those animals, so at least a few keepers got permits for species they didn't have, and weren't known in collections, in anticipation of being able to get them once they had the licence. If they've had them for 17 years and been breeding them, they must be coming out of their ears by now.

I don't believe you should suggest that those who are curious about the provenence of these animals are trying to "cause trouble" just because it is a matter of great interest to those of us who know how hard it is to get new species into the trade. I think it's also pretty reasonable for you to expect this speculation when you made your first post about these animals. As far as I know, WLPs haven't actually been "officially" found on any of the Australian islands in the Torres Strait at this point in time either.

I reiterate that I'm very happy that any new species comes into the trade, by any means - at the end of the day it doesn't make any difference conservation-wise - but I don't think you should expect it NOT to be a matter of interest to at least some of us.

Jamie

 

[Reptiles78]

Very stunning python

 

[insitu]

in all due respect i know people want to know the story but we dont own the animals and out of respect for the owner i dont feel its up to us to tell his story, the pictures were posted here and on another site and NPWS were flooded with complaints and "tip offs" for animals they knew all about very well so the owner is now not bothering to make them public anymore, simple as that! it would be the same as me visiting your house Jamie and then going and telling everyone on APS what animals you keep where they are located in your house and how many locks you have on the door because someone was just "curious" its not our place to tell

 

[Pythoninfinite]

in all due respect i know people want to know the story but we dont own the animals and out of respect for the owner i dont feel its up to us to tell his story, the pictures were posted here and on another site and NPWS were flooded with complaints and "tip offs" for animals they knew all about very well so the owner is now not bothering to make them public anymore, simple as that! it would be the same as me visiting your house Jamie and then going and telling everyone on APS what animals you keep where they are located in your house and how many locks you have on the door because someone was just "curious" its not our place to tell

To be fair, we all understand the need for privacy, and respectfully, that isn't the issue. It's not of any interest to me who has them, my curiosity simply covers the "how." There's a big difference between passing out people's private details and describing the mechanics of how a species that hasn't been available for decades suddenly comes into the trade. It looks to me like the initial release of information was to whet the appetites of those who "must have" - it certainly helps to bump up the prices people are prepared to pay to be amongst the first cabs off the rank with a new species. And don't get me wrong there either - there's nothing wrong with a commercial move in that direction either.

Jamie

 

[Jeffa]

in all due respect i know people want to know the story but we dont own the animals and out of respect for the owner i dont feel its up to us to tell his story, the pictures were posted here and on another site and NPWS were flooded with complaints and "tip offs" for animals they knew all about very well so the owner is now not bothering to make them public anymore, simple as that! it would be the same as me visiting your house Jamie and then going and telling everyone on APS what animals you keep where they are located in your house and how many locks you have on the door because someone was just "curious" its not our place to tell

Chill out mate. we can all agree that it is fantastic that this species will be available to the hobby in time. And as Jamie has posted before, it is human nature to speculate and want to know the story (can't wait to hear it too)! until then people, speculate away.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

I think Jamie has summed up the curiosity or skepticism of most posters........

 

[DanN]

I must admit that I also don’t see the problem with Jaime’s questions, and fail to understand the reasoning behind the secrecy if everything is indeed above-board. In fact, not a single person has posted a comment that disagrees with the availability of these animals within the hobby?

The “how” about the origin and importation of these snakes into Australia is of interest, and there is nothing wrong with that. As I understand there are three possibilities:

1) They were declared in the amnesty and kept hidden until now. Obviously this is unlikely to be the original individuals, but it may include their offspring,

2) They were leaked into the private hobby scene through the zoo trade. This would technically not be legal, because zoos in Australia can trade with private individuals only if the animals are already commercially available (e.g., some exotic birds). However, zoos cannot trade in species that private individuals are restricted from importing themselves (in this case, exotic reptiles). So this would rule out the WLPs, and

3) They are naturally occurring in Australia and were obtained via a collection permit.

The last point is, for me, the most interesting. It is safe to say that the snakes did not come from WA or the NT, so QLD is the only option. Naturally, it is unlikely that they occur on Cape York, leaving the Torres Straight as the only real alternative.

However, I tend to agree with Jaime that if these snakes were indeed present on the islands then the QLD Museum would know about it. Despite lots of fieldwork in the Torres Straight they have never been found. The habitat on the neighboring New Guinea mainland is also not suitable and WLPs are not found near the coast (decreasing the likelihood that they would be on Saibai or Boigu). Obviously things can go undetected, and it is very difficult to prove absence, but this only strengthens the academic interest in knowing where the snakes came from.

This last scenario would be a little strange because any movement of plants and animals from the Torres Straight requires a quarantine permit from DAFF. I understand that DAFF have no knowledge of WLPs being moved onto the mainland from Torres Straight. Nevertheless, sometimes mistakes are made, and perhaps QPWS issued collection permits and forgot about the DAFF requirement? Who knows, or really cares?

Sure, I don’t believe it is anybody’s “right” to know where they came from, and I do respect the owners’ right to divulge that information as they see fit. However, regardless of the answer, I don’t see any problem (and nor am I surprised) that there is considerable curiosity. The species may indeed be completely legal on paper, but it's not the chance that they were brought in illegally that creates the interest. There are many people, like me, who have little interest in the hobby, but still have a considerable desire to know where they came from for personal, professional and academic reasons. I think that is all Jaime is trying to say.

 

[Rlpreston]

My issue with this bickering lies in the insinuation that the 'old school' don't want the attention (which, being that they are 'old school', they must surely have known would happen) or curiosity that comes with making these things public knowledge. If that were the case, why allow the pictures to be shared, along with information suggesting that that are being/have been reproduced and will be released to the wider hobby?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I must admit that I also don’t see the problem with Jaime’s questions, and fail to understand the reasoning behind the secrecy if everything is indeed above-board. In fact, not a single person has posted a comment that disagrees with the availability of these animals within the hobby?

The “how” about the origin and importation of these snakes into Australia is of interest, and there is nothing wrong with that. As I understand there are three possibilities:

1) They were declared in the amnesty and kept hidden until now. Obviously this is unlikely to be the original individuals, but it may include their offspring,

2) They were leaked into the private hobby scene through the zoo trade. This would technically not be legal, because zoos in Australia can trade with private individuals only if the animals are already commercially available (e.g., some exotic birds). However, zoos cannot trade in species that private individuals are restricted from importing themselves (in this case, exotic reptiles). So this would rule out the WLPs, and

3) They are naturally occurring in Australia and were obtained via a collection permit.

The last point is, for me, the most interesting. It is safe to say that the snakes did not come from WA or the NT, so QLD is the only option. Naturally, it is unlikely that they occur on Cape York, leaving the Torres Straight as the only real alternative.

However, I tend to agree with Jaime that if these snakes were indeed present on the islands then the QLD Museum would know about it. Despite lots of fieldwork in the Torres Straight they have never been found. The habitat on the neighboring New Guinea mainland is also not suitable and WLPs are not found near the coast (decreasing the likelihood that they would be on Saibai or Boigu). Obviously things can go undetected, and it is very difficult to prove absence, but this only strengthens the academic interest in knowing where the snakes came from.

This last scenario would be a little strange because any movement of plants and animals from the Torres Straight requires a quarantine permit from DAFF. I understand that DAFF have no knowledge of WLPs being moved onto the mainland from Torres Straight. Nevertheless, sometimes mistakes are made, and perhaps QPWS issued collection permits and forgot about the DAFF requirement? Who knows, or really cares?

Sure, I don’t believe it is anybody’s “right” to know where they came from, and I do respect the owners’ right to divulge that information as they see fit. However, regardless of the answer, I don’t see any problem (and nor am I surprised) that there is considerable curiosity. The species may indeed be completely legal on paper, but it's not the chance that they were brought in illegally that creates the interest. There are many people, like me, who have little interest in the hobby, but still have a considerable desire to know where they came from for personal, professional and academic reasons. I think that is all Jaime is trying to say.

That's it in a beautiful nutshell Dan !

Jamie

 

[wokka]

This sounds like a re-run of when gtps and jags come into the hobby in a big way. What poeple would like to know may well be commercially sensitive. There have been numerous arguements in the past speculating that many of the GTPs and Jags may not have originated in Australia from legal scources. I would go as far as saying that the majority have not, however they are now part of the hobby and legally kept and enjoyed by many. The WLP may well have a similiar history, although not by the current owner, and i believe that it provides further opportunity to legally aquire what was previously not available to the hobby.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

The issue isn't really the same as GTPs Warwick. Although I'm sure you're correct in stating that the greatest number of GTPs in collections here originate from north of Australia, there is still a local Australian population of this single-species animal, and they have a history in collections that predates any amnesties. I don't believe that WLPs have ever been officially recorded on Australian soil, even the Australian islands in the Torres Strait. That's what makes a lot of us curious.

Jamie

 

[Burnerism]

The WLP may well have a similiar history, although not by the current owner, and i believe that it provides further opportunity to legally aquire what was previously not available to the hobby.

Just asking, are you saying the end justifys the means?

 

[wokka]

Just asking, are you saying the end justifys the means?

No, I am saying dont get bogged down in what MAY have happened in the past. It is more important to look to the future. As an example it is obvious that the majority of GTPs in captivity came from animals smuggled from overseas or illegally poached from wild Austrlian population. Whilst i dont support either happening , that is the past , so I think the hobby should concentrate on utilising the current GTPs which are licenced in Australkia, and move forward

 

[eipper]

The Morelia azurus is gaining acceptance now...... It is my understand that Australian viridis never have red or mauve neonates. So what happens to all the "exotics" legally held here.....in all fairness they are just as exotic as Varanus salvadorri or Morelia boeleni, Acanthophis laevis and Pseudechis rossignoili. Should we be able to keep Australasian or dare I say it exotics...... Under legal means of course?

 

[insitu]

already do, still plenty of people keeping exotics on license from the amnesty.