White lipped pythons.

[longqi]

Ive kept them exactly the same as I kept waters and they bred
temp about 28c and a bowl big enough to immerse in
they were black southerns
never bred golds

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Just an interesting note, as I reflect on the development of this thread - those who are obviously interested in adding this species to their collections are furiously arguing for the "Australian territory" case, using a great deal of supposition to support their position (the two voucher specimens notwithstanding...), whereas those like me who don't have a great deal of interest in the species have probably been a bit more objective throughout the 7 pages so far...

Just an observation !

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

Supposition and assumption.
Has anyone here been on Saibai, Boigu (and since V. prasinus has been mentioned) Moa and Badu islands? I mean personally.

 

[zulu]

Just an interesting note, as I reflect on the development of this thread - those who are obviously interested in adding this species to their collections are furiously arguing for the "Australian territory" case, using a great deal of supposition to support their position (the two voucher specimens notwithstanding...), whereas those like me who don't have a great deal of interest in the species have probably been a bit more objective throughout the 7 pages so far...

Just an observation !

Jamie

You left out the obvious that they were in coggers,theres nothing furious at all ,just getting some facts straight.
Might add there is not a great deal of supposition ,the museum records are concrete or Harold Cogger wouldnt use them ,they have to pass tests to be included .

 

[Waterrat]

About everything you want to know about Saibai Island - report 2013. Check the Appendix D, WLP is not even predicted.

http://www.tsra.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/4502/Saibai_Biodiversity_Profile_January_2013.pdf

 

[saltuarius]

Hey Guys,

I like this thread alot and have had this discussion with many people over the years. I have personally done herpetological survey work on Boigu Island. Although I was able to locate quite a few specimens of V. prasinus there were no WLP. I undertook extensive consultation with the local Rangers and transient PNG residents on Boigu about what they both have encountered on the PNG side and on Boigu Is. The easiest way to do this was to sit down with both groups separately and go through pictures. The PNG residents all indicated that they have seen WLP's in PNG only and have never encountered them on Boigu. This was confirmed after consultation with the Rangers.
A couple of colleagues who have worked extensively in the TS surveying for reptiles and collecting snakes for venom research also confirm that they have not, nor have they met any indigenous people from the TS who have ever seen a WLP in Australian Territory. I admit that there is potential on both Boigu and Saibai due to the close proximity of these islands with the southern coast of PNG but so far only scrubbies and water pythons have been found. I am comfortable in my opinion that they do not occur naturally in Australian Territory and although rafting over from PNG might be a natural event i don't doubt that it may have occured or does occur from time to time but i doubt that it has ever resulted in sustained colonisation.

Hope this helps a bit.

Jason

 

[TrueBlue]

Jamie, I wasnt talking about the people that are just curious about these animals causing trouble, I was talking about the people ringing QLD parks and complaining about them etc.

As has been said its not my story to tell and they are considered legal animals by the authorities, I cant see the problem.

 

[longqi]

Hey Guys,

I like this thread alot and have had this discussion with many people over the years. I have personally done herpetological survey work on Boigu Island. Although I was able to locate quite a few specimens of V. prasinus there were no WLP. I undertook extensive consultation with the local Rangers and transient PNG residents on Boigu about what they both have encountered on the PNG side and on Boigu Is. The easiest way to do this was to sit down with both groups separately and go through pictures. The PNG residents all indicated that they have seen WLP's in PNG only and have never encountered them on Boigu. This was confirmed after consultation with the Rangers.
A couple of colleagues who have worked extensively in the TS surveying for reptiles and collecting snakes for venom research also confirm that they have not, nor have they met any indigenous people from the TS who have ever seen a WLP in Australian Territory. I admit that there is potential on both Boigu and Saibai due to the close proximity of these islands with the southern coast of PNG but so far only scrubbies and water pythons have been found. I am comfortable in my opinion that they do not occur naturally in Australian Territory and although rafting over from PNG might be a natural event i don't doubt that it may have occured or does occur from time to time but i doubt that it has ever resulted in sustained colonisation.

Hope this helps a bit.

Jason

Interesting
I have never heard of or seen white lips anywhere near the PNG coast close to Aus
That is NOT a definitive answer because my experience is more in Papua than PNG

 

[solar 17]

Two points about Saibai that would make more possible WLP's being on Saibai if not native is that its so close to PNG on a clear night from SI you can see the glow of TV's on the PNG mainland and last but not least PNG and SI have "food trading rights" with the local ppl going backwards and forwards in small boats with food alll perfectly legal. solar 17 ~B~

 

[Pythoninfinite]

You left out the obvious that they were in coggers,theres nothing furious at all ,just getting some facts straight.
Might add there is not a great deal of supposition ,the museum records are concrete or Harold Cogger wouldnt use them ,they have to pass tests to be included .

I wasn't going to stay involved in this thread (sigh ) but I'm tempted to add a bit more... Col, I've spent over 30 years in Museums and I know how information can be less than accurate at times, for any number of reasons. What "tests" do they have to pass to be included as fact? The first RSP collected for the WA Museum by Ron Johnston spent the first three years in the collection identified as a Children's Python. In the end, labels are only as good as the person attaching them to an animal.

TB, thanks for that - I'm certainly not the sort of person who would want to contact the "authorities" about something like this. I did have a bit to do with the NSW NPWS investigators after my unfortunate exposure to Neil Simpson, but that was to assist them in their investigation of this creep (he pleaded guilty and was convicted of some of his crimes, so I think I can mention his name as a warning here, although he goes by dozens of other names). Good luck to anybody who is instrumental in adding any new species into the system.

As far as WLPs on the Australian Torres Strait islands go, I understand that Water Pythons are endemic to those islands mentioned, so it is highly unlikely that a similar-sized, same-niche occupying python such as the WLP would occur sympatrically with Water Pythons on the same islands. It just doesn't happen that way.

Jamie

 

[zulu]

I wasn't going to stay involved in this thread (sigh ) but I'm tempted to add a bit more... Col, I've spent over 30 years in Museums and I know how information can be less than accurate at times, for any number of reasons. What "tests" do they have to pass to be included as fact? The first RSP collected for the WA Museum by Ron Johnston spent the first three years in the collection identified as a Children's Python. In the end, labels are only as good as the person attaching them to an animal.

TB, thanks for that - I'm certainly not the sort of person who would want to contact the "authorities" about something like this. I did have a bit to do with the NSW NPWS investigators after my unfortunate exposure to Neil Simpson, but that was to assist them in their investigation of this creep (he pleaded guilty and was convicted of some of his crimes, so I think I can mention his name as a warning here, although he goes by dozens of other names). Good luck to anybody who is instrumental in adding any new species into the system.

As far as WLPs on the Australian Torres Strait islands go, I understand that Water Pythons are endemic to those islands mentioned, so it is highly unlikely that a similar-sized, same-niche occupying python such as the WLP would occur sympatrically with Water Pythons on the same islands. It just doesn't happen that way.

Jamie

Jamie your saying that Harold Cogger who is a leading herpetologist just includes species into his book without doing data quality tests ,find that hard to believe.
Online they have heaps of data quality tests and its coming from the leading institutions ,surely formally trained herpetologists would look at it and sift through and enter it etc.
Cogger is going to have proven data sets to include species into his book or he might as well go work at pizza hut.
A page with an emerald tree monitor from queensland museum lots of Data quality tests .http://biocache.ala.org.au/occurrence/9003554e-11d7-4258-8d7c-39c6b121bfd8

 

[-Peter]

A large amount of species have been described from a single poorly preserved holotype including a large number of Australian reptiles.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Jamie your saying that Harold Cogger who is a leading herpetologist just includes species into his book without doing data quality tests ,find that hard to believe.
Online they have heaps of data quality tests and its coming from the leading institutions ,surely formally trained herpetologists would look at it and sift through and enter it etc.
Cogger is going to have proven data sets to include species into his book or he might as well go work at pizza hut.
A page with an emerald tree monitor from queensland museum lots of Data quality tests .http://biocache.ala.org.au/occurrence/9003554e-11d7-4258-8d7c-39c6b121bfd8

There are no "tests" for data such as this other than the labelled specimen. Did he go up to those islands himself to confirm the data - that would be the only way of "testing" it? Scientists rely on accurate labelling in cases like this when they don't collect material themselves, and especially in very old specimens, that labelling can be very unreliable. Up until the 1960s, big field expeditions were manned by all sorts of people, oten employed locally. Many of those people were unaware of the importance of assembling accurate data and keeping it with the appropriate specimen, they just caught, killed and sometime later (often at night in camp) would label and fix the specimens - sometimes hundreds of them - in drums of preservative. Labelling, especially from long ago, can be highly inaccurate.

You would think that an Antaresia species named "perthensis" would come from the Perth region, but it doesn't come within cooee of the Perth region. It was named because of misinformation about the origin of the type specimen kept with the specimen when the taxonomists of the day classified it. It happened then, because the only "test" is the data on the label. That is the only information Cogger could use, unless there were further specimens collected in the interim... and that hasn't happened, despite significant work being done on those islands.

I should also add, Col, that there is a HUGE amount of difference in the data collected in 2004 (your example) and that which was collected even in the 1990s, with the use of such devices as GPSs now almost mandatory. We know these days what's important. Does anyone know when the two specimens on which the "Australian territory" claims have been made were collected?

This is way off-topic now, I know, but it's an interesting discussion. I'm not relating this debate in any way to the original subjects of this thread...

Jamie

 

[zulu]

No good telling me jamie ,you contact Harold Cogger and let him know your concerns ,he may be able to improve his practices if you coach him.

There has been no significant reptile surveys undertaken on saibai island according to the 2013 Torress straight island report and thats the most signifcant island around 15 ks long containing areas of woodland swamp and rainforest.

There will be far more than 11 species of reptile found on that island in the future as long as the environment remains reasonably intact.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

You've got the wrong end of the stick Col, all I've been suggesting is that the info is only as good as the collectors, and collectors of 50 or 100 years ago weren't as reliable as they are today. It is disingenuous of you to suggest that I'm being critical of Hal Cogger, or implying that he is less than professional - I certainly am not, but just like Ludwig Glauert, Glen Storr and every other publishing taxonomist, they only put into print the info that's available with the specimen. All I have done is suggest that there are a few reasons why the info pertaining to the two specimens on which he bases his case is quite likely to be suspect, and I do that from my own museum experiences.

To me, one very significant factor is that Water Pythons are common and endemic to those islands, and it would be extremely unusual for those two species to be sympatric in such a confined area.

I'm very happy to be corrected by any evidence to the contrary, until then however, I'm sceptical.

Jamie

 

[Echiopsis]

No good telling me jamie ,you contact Harold Cogger and let him know your concerns ,he may be able to improve his practices if you coach him.

There has been no significant reptile surveys undertaken on saibai island according to the 2013 Torress straight island report and thats the most signifcant island around 15 ks long containing areas of woodland swamp and rainforest.

There will be far more than 11 species of reptile found on that island in the future as long as the environment remains reasonably intact.

Sorry zulu, you're way off base here. The data is only as good as the person who collected it and labelled the specimen. You cant possibly be suggesting that Hal Cogger personally verified the distribution of every species in Australia and associated islands? Herpotologists are human, they make mistakes and unfortunately these mistakes take years to be corrected. I'm not relating this specifically to the White Lips as I have no experience with or knowledge of them but just in a general sense regarding herpetologists, taxos, museum staff and anyone who vouchers a specimen and attaches data to it.

 

[zookieboi]

Remind's me of a Boelen's and Boelen's are my favourite python

 

[zulu]

Sorry zulu, you're way off base here. The data is only as good as the person who collected it and labelled the specimen. You cant possibly be suggesting that Hal Cogger personally verified the distribution of every species in Australia and associated islands? Herpotologists are human, they make mistakes and unfortunately these mistakes take years to be corrected. I'm not relating this specifically to the White Lips as I have no experience with or knowledge of them but just in a general sense regarding herpetologists, taxos, museum staff and anyone who vouchers a specimen and attaches data to it.

So what your saying is he just believes the data thats submitted ,thats wrong,it is scrutinised .Onley have to look at the bioderversity atlas ,there is black headed pythons from NSW in institutions but they dont pass the data quality tests

 

[Echiopsis]

So what your saying is he just believes the data thats submitted ,thats wrong,it is scrutinised .Onley have to look at the bioderversity atlas ,there is black headed pythons from NSW in institutions but they dont pass the data quality tests

You obviously aren't going to be swayed by common sense so believe what ever you want, no skin off my nose :lol: Keep in mind that a huge amount of specimens were collected by people before any modern day publisher was alive, how exactly would you verify the legitimacy of the data without going to the site and surveying yourself? You seem to believe the data is heavily scrutinised, how exactly is this done?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

You obviously aren't going to be swayed by common sense so believe what ever you want, no skin off my nose :lol: Keep in mind that a huge amount of specimens were collected by people before any modern day publisher was alive, how exactly would you verify the legitimacy of the data without going to the site and surveying yourself? You seem to believe the data is heavily scrutinised, how exactly is this done?

I've actually asked the same question twice before, but apparently it's a given that the data is tested beyond doubt. If my experience of herp taxonomists is anything to go by, it's quite possible that Dr Cogger himself may be sceptical of the localities of these specimens, given many decades of failure to find them on these islands subsequently. But he can only publish the data as the labels describe it, and of course if he was writing a comprehensive treatise on the reptiles of Australia, he couldn't leave them out, regardless of any scepticism he may have, because in science, personal opinion counts for nothing.

Again, how is it "scrutinised" Col?

Jamie