888lowndes888
Well-Known Member
Out of interest I am interested to know how many people use the Skarffing technique. Im neither for nor against as I don't know enough about it to comment but am interested to know how many people use it.
Who uses Skarffing?
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dragon lady
Very Well-Known Member
until recently...when i talked to Shane myself
i was confused on the terminology....basically its feeding when they are hungry
not on a strict regime...1 feed per wk...for its life!
i had always done this with my dragons...
other members who are more technical than i....not hard!..LOL
will be able e to describe better ..
i have only had a python under my roof for a week!
i was confused on the terminology....basically its feeding when they are hungry
not on a strict regime...1 feed per wk...for its life!
i had always done this with my dragons...
other members who are more technical than i....not hard!..LOL
will be able e to describe better ..
i have only had a python under my roof for a week!
hazzard
Very Well-Known Member
Lets get rid of the term skaarfing for a start. The term developed from a research experiment we were doing on feeding trials of childrens pythons. People since have adopted the term as power-feeding (which is wrong) and as overfeeding (which again is wrong).
Basically our trial consisted of 2 feeding treatment groups one was feeding at a rate of 10% Body Weight per week and the other at 30% BW per week (all under the scrutiny of animal ethics and DECC)! The pythons were split up into sexes and characteristics such as body morphometrics, growth rates, health, bloodwork and ultrasound etc are being assessed.
As this is an ongoing trial i cant give you the answers of everything yet. Preliminary data was presented at the recent CARA conference for those who attended.
The term Skaarfing was used (for the higher treatment group) loosely as to what some top breeders such as Shane and Bob Withey have used for ages!
The results will suprise most! You always get people who criticise and ridicule research, but as a scientist i only accept statistically proven data that has been peer reviewed. Anything less is pretty much hearsay!
Basically in a nutshell the statistically strong sample size indicated that in the trial period (so far) that it was not possible to overfeed childrens pythons and that they were to the larger part self regulating in feed intake! The 30% group animals as a whole self regulated their intake to 16% across the trial period they could not sustain the high rate!
Also metabolic efficiency was unchanged for either treatment group (meaning the make the most of what they eat)
Pin head syndrome does not exist (statistically large sample group)
Growth rates of the different fed groups were remarkably different!
Sex had no effect!
The problem with this whole debate is that is based largely on no factual information! Our trials aim to help the understanding of these issues at a whole! Results i beleive will be uploaded shortly and you can interpret for yourselves! We are not biased in anyway in this trial!
My personal opinion;
What i have always advocated which others don't seem to grasp we are talking about feeding at a higher rate until they reach maturity, not beyond. Its the wild situation of feast or famine, It has been well documented that Water Pythons at Fogg Dam during a rat plague reach sexual maturity at 18 months. These preliminary studies on metabolism indicate that this may be the case in all pythons. If food is available they eat with unbeleivable metabolic efficiency. It makes perfect sense to me that a python would want to reach it's dominant status in the food chain as quickly as possible! Equally if food is not available they make the most out of what they eat and are incredibly resiliant! Feast or famine the way of the wild!
I expect heated opposition from many, but again i'd like to see peer reviewed statistics to back up claims.
Cheers
Basically our trial consisted of 2 feeding treatment groups one was feeding at a rate of 10% Body Weight per week and the other at 30% BW per week (all under the scrutiny of animal ethics and DECC)! The pythons were split up into sexes and characteristics such as body morphometrics, growth rates, health, bloodwork and ultrasound etc are being assessed.
As this is an ongoing trial i cant give you the answers of everything yet. Preliminary data was presented at the recent CARA conference for those who attended.
The term Skaarfing was used (for the higher treatment group) loosely as to what some top breeders such as Shane and Bob Withey have used for ages!
The results will suprise most! You always get people who criticise and ridicule research, but as a scientist i only accept statistically proven data that has been peer reviewed. Anything less is pretty much hearsay!
Basically in a nutshell the statistically strong sample size indicated that in the trial period (so far) that it was not possible to overfeed childrens pythons and that they were to the larger part self regulating in feed intake! The 30% group animals as a whole self regulated their intake to 16% across the trial period they could not sustain the high rate!
Also metabolic efficiency was unchanged for either treatment group (meaning the make the most of what they eat)
Pin head syndrome does not exist (statistically large sample group)
Growth rates of the different fed groups were remarkably different!
Sex had no effect!
The problem with this whole debate is that is based largely on no factual information! Our trials aim to help the understanding of these issues at a whole! Results i beleive will be uploaded shortly and you can interpret for yourselves! We are not biased in anyway in this trial!
My personal opinion;
What i have always advocated which others don't seem to grasp we are talking about feeding at a higher rate until they reach maturity, not beyond. Its the wild situation of feast or famine, It has been well documented that Water Pythons at Fogg Dam during a rat plague reach sexual maturity at 18 months. These preliminary studies on metabolism indicate that this may be the case in all pythons. If food is available they eat with unbeleivable metabolic efficiency. It makes perfect sense to me that a python would want to reach it's dominant status in the food chain as quickly as possible! Equally if food is not available they make the most out of what they eat and are incredibly resiliant! Feast or famine the way of the wild!
I expect heated opposition from many, but again i'd like to see peer reviewed statistics to back up claims.
Cheers
Thanks for that Hazzard, it looks as though the research will back up what I have said several times and ridiculed for by some. My believe as stated is that it is practically impossible to overfeed YOUNG snakes. I look forward to the results.
An interesting side note is that with the vote more or less 50/50 what do each side base their vote on ? Is it because an experienced keeper has told them it is wrong or indeed right or is it some other reason ?
An interesting side note is that with the vote more or less 50/50 what do each side base their vote on ? Is it because an experienced keeper has told them it is wrong or indeed right or is it some other reason ?
hazzard
Very Well-Known Member
We will post results in the feild herping research section tonight! This should be under the account UWS! we are still sorting that out. This is so we can keep our personal opinions seperate from simply the research facts!
Cheers!
Cheers!
11 'skaarfers' to 9 'nons'
i think its very different in dragons tho. a fast metabolism animal compaired to the slow (snake)
its possible 'one feed a week' in the wild, why not allow adequate food in captivity. there was controversy over such a fast growth, although non of it was conclusive.. i dont see a problem with it personally.
i think its very different in dragons tho. a fast metabolism animal compaired to the slow (snake)
its possible 'one feed a week' in the wild, why not allow adequate food in captivity. there was controversy over such a fast growth, although non of it was conclusive.. i dont see a problem with it personally.
The onlty trouble with this is that it is the long term affects that wont be recorded, as imo this is where the trouble is. Pump your animals too much when they are young and its not untill the animals are around 10 yrs or so that most problems will occour.
I disagree totally with what boa has said and seroisly do belive that you can very easily over fed a young snake.
A python should live for 30 years or more and be able to breed for most of those years, yet virtually every python that ive seen thats been power feed when young will have a few good clutches then as it ages has nothing but problems and rarely seems to live past 10-15 years.
I disagree totally with what boa has said and seroisly do belive that you can very easily over fed a young snake.
A python should live for 30 years or more and be able to breed for most of those years, yet virtually every python that ive seen thats been power feed when young will have a few good clutches then as it ages has nothing but problems and rarely seems to live past 10-15 years.
Most studies done on the stomach contents of wild pythons show that only some thing like 5% of all animals tested have shown any trace of of food in their tract what so ever, so its not days or weeks between feeds on average but weeks and months.
jack
Very Well-Known Member
i have a gut feeling (pun intended) that trueblue may be correct... we will have to wait till the science is done.
hazzard
Very Well-Known Member
That may be a fair enough comment, who knows! The problem is there is no stats on it and there is not likely to be as 20-30 yr funded trials are unrealistic? How do you come to those conclusions. Do you have records of some sort to correlate what you term as power feeding etc! I respect your right to a personal opinion but i beleive we need to be careful making claims without actual numbers figures and statistics!
What health problems occur at this 10yr age! How do you know they are related to feeding rates when young? Thats a fairly major claim! Bob has many animals older than 10-15 yrs of age that are still productive! Shane has records of a woma that has produced 99 viable eggs so far at 10 yrs of age!
I guess to further encourage or enrage the debate, what are you having your animals for! Many people now have animals for a production market, others for life long pets! What is right and what is wrong!
I still stand by the claims that without statistical data much of this is hearsay!
Many animals are diagnosed to have been killed by fat just because no other cause can be found. Where are the stats for body score and internal health (fat accumulation) of wild pythons. It's hard to make any assesments without these, but we have to start somewhere!
As i said i have my personal opinions, but our research is not influenced by that, it's purely reporting numbers and facts. We aim to look at reproductive success, etc etc for at least 3 years, beyond that who knows, we may be able to keep track of these animals and see after 10 yrs!
You have to start somewhere. We have plans to examine, morelia and aspidities in the coming years as well. Hopefully these kind of debates can encourage investment in research in these areas!
hazzard
Very Well-Known Member
Surely this is dependant upon seasonal variations and habitat! There are many areas of Australia where pythons are extremely well fed! If you can point me toward a reference for this it would be much appreciated! Granted some pythons don't eat for months, this was what was interesting with the findings, is that their metabolic efficiency remains unchanged, they take it and make the most of it when they can get it!
hazzard, just from what i have observed over the years.
It seems to me to be way to much of a coincedence that pumped animals tend to have many more health related problems than animals grown slowly in the first 12 to 18 months.
The health issues ive seen have been trouble breeding, lots of slugs when the do, dying for no reason, getting sick and lethargec for no reason with no diagnossis found when taken to a vet.
Lets face it theres always an exception to the rule, but on average im 99% sure that power feeding pythons when young causes these problems as ive just seen it happen way to often.
It seems to me to be way to much of a coincedence that pumped animals tend to have many more health related problems than animals grown slowly in the first 12 to 18 months.
The health issues ive seen have been trouble breeding, lots of slugs when the do, dying for no reason, getting sick and lethargec for no reason with no diagnossis found when taken to a vet.
Lets face it theres always an exception to the rule, but on average im 99% sure that power feeding pythons when young causes these problems as ive just seen it happen way to often.
It is very rare to find a fat snake in the wild, infact most wild snakes if they were in captivity would be deemed skinny and under feed, yet they still thrive and breed.
Correct me if im wrong, but even in one of Richard Shines studies this was everdent when they looked at stomach contents.
Correct me if im wrong, but even in one of Richard Shines studies this was everdent when they looked at stomach contents.
JasonL
Almost Legendary
Premature death in adult captive snakes can have many causes, under / over heating, obesity / heart problems due to being over fed as adults and lack of exercise, being over bred, genetic weakness ect..... it's a long bow you have to draw to pin early death on fast growth. Many pythons die prematurely being fed slowly too.
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