Who uses Skarffing?

[888lowndes888]

Alot more people seem to use it then I thought. Just a question for Hazzard why are you trying to stop it being called Skaarfing yet in another thread to do with skaarfing you said you were the one who named it?
"I'm not ashamed to admit that i started the term as it sort of emulates the style Shane uses."-Hazzard.
In no ways having a go or anything just curious.

 

[cracksinthepitch]

Haz i wonder if you considered a third category of underfeeding. I know there may be cruelty issues related but i think that the results would be very beneficial in setting up a benchmark minimum. I get very confused about the feeding regime. People show me their Antaresia and give ages , then i compare with mine and i get concerned im underfeeding her. I try and keep her existance as lifelike as possible and i dont really want her to get big too soon. At what age should these pythons be fully grown? Perhaps mine is a Spotted Pygmy python

 

[dragon lady]

be interesting to get Shanes own opinion on this eh!..how he says it!

long before i joined this site....i did things my way with my dragons....
not the let them eat for 10min routine...?
didnt know of the Scarffing terminology...or its existance

my dragons reach their maximum length by 12mnths...by average
been asked if i Scarff them...push feed them....what ever feed them
i just let them eat the amount the want...they use allot of energy...
would never force feed them!

im not good on terminologies...never have been
do what think is fair to the animal in question...

we should ask Shane....let the man speak eh!

 

[hazzard]

Alot more people seem to use it then I thought. Just a question for Hazzard why are you trying to stop it being called Skaarfing yet in another thread to do with skaarfing you said you were the one who named it?
"I'm not ashamed to admit that i started the term as it sort of emulates the style Shane uses."-Hazzard.
In no ways having a go or anything just curious.

Well the term is being miss-used and miss-understood and is often used in a derogatory way to describe Shanes keeping style which it was never intended to do!. It is not power feeding or overfeeding as people are using it! As Bob Withey points out, Shane has emulated his style and many other keepers have used it to, so really now there is no need for the term.

 

[hazzard]

Haz i wonder if you considered a third category of underfeeding. I know there may be cruelty issues related but i think that the results would be very beneficial in setting up a benchmark minimum. I get very confused about the feeding regime. People show me their Antaresia and give ages , then i compare with mine and i get concerned im underfeeding her. I try and keep her existance as lifelike as possible and i dont really want her to get big too soon. At what age should these pythons be fully grown? Perhaps mine is a Spotted Pygmy python

If you read the treatment results you will see 10% is a low figure and is basically underfeeding IMO! On average the group only put on 60g or so in a 10 month period, hence being termed the low feeding treatment. Much lower than this and they basically don't grow at all!

What i ask is how many of you have actually weighed your animal, calculated 10% weighed a prey item and seen how little it is. Try it you will be suprised!

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

I was probably the first keeper to use the high food method with young snakes. Does it have long term health effects on your snakes, well after 20 years I am still waiting to see.

As far as I am aware my snakes have bred longer than just about most keepers in Australia, some 15 years straight . Shane Scarf who has been using my method for over 10 years breds all his snakes annually and has some of the healthiest snakes in Australia.

Though I have nothing that could even be called experience with snakes, this sounds like a reasonable case to me. Granted It is one person's experience, from what I understand, Bob is one of more experienced keepers posting to this forum? As my keeping program is in it's infancy, I would love to hear more on this topic from those keepers with decades of experience. It would be the best way for us rookies to make an informed decision on the subject of "skarffing", power feeding, pumping up, whatever you want to call it.

For now, the 4 hatchies I have going at the moment will still be getting fed evey Sunday. (Is that skarffing?)

 

[Chimera]

But nature uses my method will no ill effects(Fogg Dam Water Pythons for example)

I was wondering when Fogg Dam was going to come up, I think I've mentioned that before as an argument against the nay sayers.

The problem with using direct comparisons to wild diets and growth rates is, as hazzard has said on more then one occasion, that these individuals are not kept in wild conditions. They are kept in hot boxes with permanent access to heat and sunny weather all year round.

This is a method that is about as proven as most other keeping practices (that is to say, not scientifically, but a number of people have been doing it for years without issue). I think it is worth noting that most keeping practices are only proven anecdotally and therefore the demand for hard scientific evidence is ludicrous at this time. Perhaps as this study progresses we can hope for proof.

Bob is right in that people are quick to criticise keeping practices without trying them. Having said that I think the response "doesn't sound right to me, so I won't" is valid as long as you think about it and make up your own mind rather than being led by the nose by popular opinion. Criticising others for having a different view on keeping practices, especially when they are using commonly accepted practices is the height of arrogance.

 

[hazzard]

I have to agree, and i hope i haven't sounded arrogant on the subject anywhere! Everyone is entitled to a view or a say it just infuriates me when people ridicule research and simply accept the anecdotal observations of others.

The main reason for doing this studies is to supply statitistical factual evidence for people to make there own choices! Simply supplying the facts! I myself have my own views on the subject and am not afraid to voice them but i respect the write of others to have an opinion as long they have actually read the research and subjectively analysed the topic in some way!

Again i point out the research results are preliminary and it is ongoing research. We have to start somewhere right!

The argument that most of the scientific evidence out there in books and the like are from keepers observations is valid, but i stress it doesn't mean it is "right". The fact that we have now the scientific means and a facility willing to look at captive husbandry issues is a massive step foward for this hobby / commercial occupation.

Cheers

 

[bigi]

hazzard,
i am interested in the 10% minimum and i think you said the 30% 's only averaged 16%.
please correct if i am wrong because im a little lazy to go back through the entire thread.
if they self moderate at say 16% of their body weight, how regular ( frequency of feeding )would this be if all heat conditions, health etc are at correct levels
thanks

 

[Southside Morelia]

Bob is right in that people are quick to criticise keeping practices without trying them. Having said that I think the response "doesn't sound right to me, so I won't" is valid as long as you think about it and make up your own mind rather than being led by the nose by popular opinion. Criticising others for having a different view on keeping practices, especially when they are using commonly accepted practices is the height of arrogance.

Bingo Brother!!
Not a truer word was spoken....seems to be alot of that, about alot of different topics on this site of late!

 

[hugsta]

I have been "skaarfing" my snakes since I started keeping them 8 odd years ago and have had no signs of any health issues at all in relation to overfeeding. My macs are up for their 5th season this year and have produced clutches every year.

The one thing I do see a lot of in this industry is a vast amount of underfed animals around. I mate recently bought an adult diamond from a person he had been dealing with since the guy bought it as a hatchie. When I saw the animal it was skin and bones, a 6 ft diamond that weighed in just over 1kg is way undernourished. Why, because the breeder had told him that diamonds need to grow really slowly and to feed it once a month. Totally incorrect IMO. The animal is here at home being fed up at the moment so it can get back some condition.

I have also seen 3 yr old macs that look like 12 month old animals that are still being fed rat pups, why, because they were told not too feed their animals too much.

I could go on for ages with these stories that I have seen and honestly believe way too many people are being given the wrong information about how much too feed their animals. I also believe some breeders mislead purchasers about how much to feed their animals so they don't "pump" their animals and produce offspring to compete with their own market too soon.

When it is all said and done an animal should look healthy, that is, their should be nice muscle tone down either side of the spine which gives the impression of an "M" shape. If you don't see this in your animal it is either too skinny/underweight and the spine would show easily through the back or it is too fat and looks round with no muscle tone. Although lack of excercise may also be an influencing factor in this side of the coin.

Oce again these are just my opinions.

Cheers
Daz

 

[Southside Morelia]

I have been "skaarfing" my snakes since I started keeping them 8 odd years ago and have had no signs of any health issues at all in relation to overfeeding. My macs are up for their 5th season this year and have produced clutches every year.

The one thing I do see a lot of in this industry is a vast amount of underfed animals around. I mate recently bought an adult diamond from a person he had been dealing with since the guy bought it as a hatchie. When I saw the animal it was skin and bones, a 6 ft diamond that weighed in just over 1kg is way undernourished. Why, because the breeder had told him that diamonds need to grow really slowly and to feed it once a month. Totally incorrect IMO. The animal is here at home being fed up at the moment so it can get back some condition.

I have also seen 3 yr old macs that look like 12 month old animals that are still being fed rat pups, why, because they were told not too feed their animals too much.

I could go on for ages with these stories that I have seen and honestly believe way too many people are being given the wrong information about how much too feed their animals. I also believe some breeders mislead purchasers about how much to feed their animals so they don't "pump" their animals and produce offspring to compete with their own market too soon.

When it is all said and done an animal should look healthy, that is, their should be nice muscle tone down either side of the spine which gives the impression of an "M" shape. If you don't see this in your animal it is either too skinny/underweight and the spine would show easily through the back or it is too fat and looks round with no muscle tone. Although lack of excercise may also be an influencing factor in this side of the coin.

Oce again these are just my opinions.

Cheers
Daz

Hey Daz,

I agree 100% with your post.
Can I ask you a question please? As the majority are agreeable of feeding using this method, although no one has answered my question in a previous post on this thread...How much food is considered to be scaarffing?
How much/duration do you feed your animals as I am wondering if my regime is considered scaarffing or not, because if it isn't, i'd be tempted adjust the food intake to suite.
cheers
scott.

 

[Chimera]

Hey Daz,

I agree 100% with your post.
Can I ask you a question please? As the majority are agreeable of feeding using this method, although no one has answered my question in a previous post on this thread...How much food is considered to be scaarffing?
How much/duration do you feed your animals as I am wondering if my regime is considered scaarffing or not, because if it isn't, i'd be tempted adjust the food intake to suite.
cheers
scott.

The UWS study used a high/low feed rate as 30% and 10% per week respectively. I think the main point that has been made in this thread is that we should probably shake the term scaarffing. There is the option of feeding a higher rate to hatchies and then there is serious power feeding which generally uses a shorter period between feeds.

 

[hazzard]

The UWS study used a high/low feed rate as 30% and 10% per week respectively. I think the main point that has been made in this thread is that we should probably shake the term scaarffing. There is the option of feeding a higher rate to hatchies and then there is serious power feeding which generally uses a shorter period between feeds.

Thats spot on Chimera!

Basically we have no way of giving you an exact rate and frequency of feeding. We did not assess that in this trial. All animals were fed every 7 days their treatment amount or until they refused. The growth data observed is from that only.

It raises an interesting question however. If the animals were fed those treatment amounts (particularly the high feed treatment) more frequently, would the level of self regulation have been the same?

So as mentioned if you read the growth rate thread, you will note we have not developed any suggested feeding rates, nor do we have enough information as yet to suggest any.

This is why it would be negligent to assign a particular amount to the way we feed at this stage. The best bet would to be to get an idea from "Big Guy" and Shane himself a typical amount they feed. Again it is totally dependant on the size of the animal. I weigh the animal and the items to see, however as you become very experienced i'm pretty sure your educated guess is pretty close to the mark.

Cheers!

 

[Southside Morelia]

Thats spot on Chimera!

Basically we have no way of giving you an exact rate and frequency of feeding. We did not assess that in this trial. All animals were fed every 7 days their treatment amount or until they refused. The growth data observed is from that only.

It raises an interesting question however. If the animals were fed those treatment amounts (particularly the high feed treatment) more frequently, would the level of self regulation have been the same?

So as mentioned if you read the growth rate thread, you will note we have not developed any suggested feeding rates, nor do we have enough information as yet to suggest any.

This is why it would be negligent to assign a particular amount to the way we feed at this stage. The best bet would to be to get an idea from "Big Guy" and Shane himself a typical amount they feed. Again it is totally dependant on the size of the animal. I weigh the animal and the items to see, however as you become very experienced i'm pretty sure your educated guess is pretty close to the mark.

Cheers!

Interesting Hazz,
I look forward to reading more in the future!
After taking in all what has been said, I would say my feeding regime is pretty close to the mark.
Cool!
Cheers
scott.

 

[Den from Den Pythons]

My two cents....

We 'pump feed' hatchling untill they reach around 12months of age then back off or steady their feeding cycle out as they reach maturity. It's obvious that alot of pythons kept in captivity are overweight to an extent but from experience, obesity is caused by over feeding mature age animals rather than by pump feeding hatchlings.....This is obviously just my opinion!

Thanks to those who have posted, this has been a good little read so far.
Den

 

[BIG RYANO]

I also believe some breeders mislead purchasers about how much to feed their animals so they don't "pump" their animals and produce offspring to compete with their own market too soon.

I reckon this happens a lot more than people realise. Good call.

 

[Noongato]

Well i guess i dont use scarffing, as i feed mine whenever i remember (or bother to go to the petshop for food) Which tends to be a range of a week to a month gap inbetween.
When it is feeding time again, i make him 'hunt' it down, and seach for the food, so he gets the stimulation. So he is pre-execised.
Never had any problems...

 

[moosenoose]

Amazing stuff Hazzard! What you have written is very interesting and has given me a different and useful insight. Exact what this site is about! Thanks.

 

[Renagade]

i don't skarff because i don't intend to breed my snake, that and he looks hot in his 2ft x 2ft x1ft reptile one display enclosure. i've spent way to much $ on it just to have hime power grow out of it. he is 16 months old and about 120cm (6 sheds)