Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum

Help Support Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
And the topic raises its ugly head again!

But I find it an interesting topic to debate, so I’ll throw my thoughts into the ring.

Personally, as we are talking about herpetoculture ie: keeping and breeding pet snakes that have no research or conservation value and are not bred with the intention to be repatriated back into the wild, I don’t see any problem with it.

The genus occupies a vast distribution area and like the Morelia spilota group (and has Jamie has alluded) there are transition zones where it is impossible to identify one species (if you want to call them that) from another.

Sure some display distinct patterning but I ask the question. Other than variations in patterns, is this feature significant enough to quantify the splitting of the group in the first place?

And I’d further ask. Is colour and patterning enough to elevate what may, if anything, be just a sub- species to species level and if so why is this not adopted right across the board of Australian herps? For example look at the mass variations in the colour and patterns of Common Brown Snakes (Pseudonaja textilis), variations of colours and patterns between the Southern Blotched and Alpine Blotched Blue Tongues (Tiliqua nigrolutea), huge variation amongst Spotted Black Snakes (Pseudechis guttatus) and has been mentioned the “Bells” phase of the Lace Monitor (Varanus varius).

Some have suggested that species of Antaresia have been confirmed at species level by mitochondrial DNA analysis. I’ve done a bit of digging around over the last couple of months and can’t find any data to confirm this however I would be happy if someone can point me in that direction if data is available.

As far as recognition of the current species (subspecies) of the Morelia sp group. It’s my understanding that it is still yet to be resolved. The problem is that the International Code Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN) is open to a wide range of interpretations by taxonomists (both amateur and professional).

I’ve included a link to a paper by S A Ciavaghia and associates – “Species identification of protected carpet pythons suitable for degraded forensic samples” if your interested in having a read. From my understanding of the research the use of mitochondrial DNA analysis can determine the ancestry of a genus and/or species as well as the location of individual animals but as you will see in the extract I have provided of the ICZN Code, location/distribution alone is not considered sufficient to classify taxa as a separate species. To be raised to species level a taxon must be uniquely different from other taxa. So I believe it can be argued, “What level of difference in DNA analysis contributes to a unique difference?”

Having discussed the matter with a friend that is a geneticist, it appears to me that the problem that currently exists with using DNA analysis to attempt to identify/confirm species (I’m referring to reptiles in particular) is that it is subject to variations dependant on which gene bank the samples comes from, the type of sample used, who undertakes the analysis and how the analysis is undertaken.

I’ll add that I’m not alone in my belief the validity of molecular data used to identify or validate species is somewhat questionable and should be resolved further. The phylogeny’s margin of error would drastically reduce if there were certain standards to comply with. I think this would go a long way to improving the confidence people have in the results.

For the benefit of interested;

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ythons_suitable_for_degraded_forensic_samples

Extract

“The position of M. bredli within M. spilota and the clustering of individuals of the
M. spilota imbricata sub-species as a separate group to the remainder of M. spilota requires some comment. Morelia bredli was recently reclassified as a separate species from M. spilota without a formal taxonomic treatment [28]. Our data suggest two possibilities for the relationship of M. bredli with M. spilota: either that M. bredli
is not sufficiently divergent to be a separate species, or that M. spilota actually comprises several species, among which two would be M. bredli and M. s. imbricata. Resolution of these issues will require extensive morphological analysis and likely nuclear gene data, neither of which is trivial for this widespread group of pythons. As an interim we hereafter use ‘‘M. spilota complex’’ to refer to M. spilota, M. bredli, and M. s. imbricata in lieu of future taxonomic resolution of the complex”.

Interpretation and application of the ICZN Code


The Code rules on issues regarding nomenclatural acts and works, and aims to “provide the maximum universality and continuity in the scientific names of animals compatible with the freedom of scientists to classify animals according to taxonomic judgments”. Due to its universality, the wording of the Code leaves considerable room for interpretation.
[h=4]APPLICATION 1.[/h]“Characters”: To be available a name must “be accompanied by a description or definition that states in words characters that are purported to differentiate the taxon”. A description in the meaning of the Code is “a statement in words of taxonomic characters of a specimen or a taxon”, and a definition is “a statement in words that purports to give those characters which, in combination uniquely distinguish a taxon”. The glossary defines the word taxon as a “taxonomic unit, whether named or not: i.e., a population, or group of populations of organisms which are usually inferred to be phylogenetically related and which have characters in common which differentiate the unit (e.g., a geographic population, a genus, a family, an order) from other such units”. This latter statement clearly excludes distribution itself as a character to differentiate taxa and that complies with article 13.1.1, since it requires characters to differentiate a “geographic population” from other such units. Many taxonomists are likely to accept a geographic population, especially an insular population, only separated from other such populations by distribution, at subspecific rank. However, the Code does not distinguish between specific and subspecific rank in its requirements (Arts. 45.1, 45.2), and therefore subspecies must also be distinguishable by characters other than by their isolated locality or distribution.
[h=4]APPLICATION 2.[/h]“Generalized statements”: Generalized statements such as “separated by distribution” or “separated by analysis of DNA” or relative statements such as “usually (but not always) has” do not constitute a character in the sense of article 13.1.1 (APP1). Analysis of DNA clearly describes a method although genomic differences are of diagnostic value, and distribution itself is not a character, as it is not intrinsic to any specimen within the taxon. Therefore, these are not attributes of an organism (see glossary for character). Moreover, strictly following the glossary definition of the word description, the Code would require that a taxon must be uniquely distinguished from other taxa and generalized statements do not imply uniqueness.

Regards,

George.
 
Going back to the laws, does anyone know for a fact if it's prohibited or not in NSW or VIC? Again I could only find vague text about releasing hybrids in the wild, but it's not like we'll ever release any snake in the wild on purpose anyway.
 
Hey there madsylar, does the statement
but it's not like we'll ever release any snake in the wild on purpose anyway.
mean you personally or does it pertain to everyone in the hobby, if it means everyone you might be surprised by how many people actually do let their snakes go in the wild thinking among other things that they are helping to re-establish snakes in their area, the other reason they do it is the hybrids they have created do not sell and they can't bring themselves to euthanise them. This is a major concern to most serious breeders in the hobby and it needs to be controlled so the market does not become flooded with mongrels, most people have a conscience and will tell prospective buyers that the snake they are buying is a hybrid, but it is the minority that causes the problem and when bred to these mongrels just biget more mongrels. I really hate this subject so will finish here before i really get a ramble on lol. :( .....................Ron
 
I might be wrong, I often am, but so far I couldn't see any compelling argument against hybrid antaresia. The fact that they're "unnatural" can also be applied to pied and albino "pure" morphs. Same to the argument of "there's a reason they're not found in the wild".
 
Your comment about morphs simply shows that you still don't understand what a morph is, or don't want to be put off doing what you clearly want to, and probably will, do. Colour forms of pure species (and I won't go down the Carpet thing, George is probably right...) are TOTALLY different to hybrids between species. Morphs, including albino and unpatterned animals, of pure species occur in the wild, and are usually unsuccessful if they are conspicuous, as albinos and probably pied animals are. The surviving and successful animals are those which can live their lives discreetly and avoid predation. If you've been around long enough, you will know that the original albino Carpet bred by Simon Stone so successfully was caught as a juvenile wild snake in Darwin. If it wasn't taken into captivity and raised in safety, it would almost certainly have been eaten or killed before it reached maturity. But it was a perfectly "natural" animal apart from its lack of colour. To any of those who support hybridisation, it would be very useful if they spent some time researching the natural history of these fantastic creatures before they roll the wrecking ball a bit further down the track towards the commodification of our natural heritage.

Jamie
 
The fact that the offspring can survive in the wild is of absolutely no relevance. Now if they are not healthy, then perhaps yes but I've seen many problems with albino spotted and they are "pure". I'm not trying to run a zoo or "save the species", as far as I'm concerned this is hobby and so far i've read nothing that would encourage someone not to try get cool looking snakes (it it better than morphs?) by cross breeding antaresia.
 
The fact that the offspring can survive in the wild is of absolutely no relevance. Now if they are not healthy, then perhaps yes but I've seen many problems with albino spotted and they are "pure". I'm not trying to run a zoo or "save the species", as far as I'm concerned this is hobby and so far i've read nothing that would encourage someone not to try get cool looking snakes (it it better than morphs?) by cross breeding antaresia.

You won't get 'cool looking' morphs, you'll end up with ordinary looking anteresia species that will be harder to sell because they're hybrids. Unless you're culling, a lot. Or lying about their parentage..but surely nobody would do anything so douchey on here, now would they?
 
You won't get 'cool looking' morphs, you'll end up with ordinary looking anteresia species that will be harder to sell because they're hybrids. Unless you're culling, a lot. Or lying about their parentage..but surely nobody would do anything so douchey on here, now would they?

I would have no problems buying a hybrid from another breeder and not everything is in the hobby for profits.
 
I am curious what kind of 'cool' you are expecting to produce? There are so many variations within the natural patterning of both stimsoni and maculosa that I would bet if you spent a while looking at them, you would find that pattern python you want to make you happy.
I have a wheatbelt stimmie who has mostly dark covering her first third with only spots of the light background colour, opposite to the regular.
With so much variety already available why would someone feel the need to cross breed what is currently two separate species? If perhaps you just happen to have one of each and now want to breed, perhaps you could try advertising for swaps to end up with two stimmies or spotteds?
Just my two cents
 
how do you know they wont be unusual? a platinum mac with a wheatbelt stimmy for example.
 
how do you know they wont be unusual? a platinum mac with a wheatbelt stimmy for example.
How do you know that they will be?
The best you will get is some muddy looking snake that is a mix of the two.

If you want to great the new "super morph" you are better off buying a couple different spotted pythons morphs and mixing them. You have a much higher chance of getting unusual and good looking snakes from that, rather than crossing two different species. Plus they will be worth more by not being hybrids. You also don't have to worry about breaking your license rules resulting in you getting a fine and them being seized and destroyed.
It is a unanimously bad idea from everyone other than you who has commented. Take the hint and leave this idea. The only name you will make for yourself doing this is a bad one. Once you get that bad name it is quite hard to become respected again.

Cheers, Cameron
 
It is illegal in Victoria under the wildlife act.
 
Lol no. Yes, it's an unanimously bad idea but so far without much facts to back it up.
"The best you will get is some muddy looking snake that is a mix of the two. " ==> your evidence for that is?
"
You have a much higher chance of getting unusual and good looking snakes from that, rather than crossing two different species." ==> your evidence for that too?
"
worry about breaking your license rules resulting in you getting a fine and them being seized and destroyed." ==> I haven't found anything supporting this statement in NSW or VIC. I'll ignore this too until I can read evidence that one would be breaking the law.
"
The only name you will make for yourself doing this is a bad one. " ==> Lol, this isn't my career, I don't care much for my reputation in an online forum.

I appreciate your input though, however opinions won't change my mind.

Cheers

 
Lol no. Yes, it's an unanimously bad idea but so far without much facts to back it up.
"The best you will get is some muddy looking snake that is a mix of the two. " ==> your evidence for that is? Your evidence that it won't? How will you know that a platinum mac will transfer onto a stimmie. If it isn't to your liking, what would you do with it? Let it muddle the genes like the morelia madness that we are currently in?
"You have a much higher chance of getting unusual and good looking snakes from that, rather than crossing two different species." ==> your evidence for that too? Check out Peter Birch's animals or @Jason's, they are stunning and no hybrid in the world could look better than that (unless YOU give us evidence lol)
"worry about breaking your license rules resulting in you getting a fine and them being seized and destroyed." ==> I haven't found anything supporting this statement
in NSW or VIC. I'll ignore this too until I can read evidence that one would be breaking the law
If you care for the animal's sake, I wouldn't risk it. If your weird Ant mix ends up being dead, just remember it is your fault. It is legal in NSW though I don't know about VIC.
"The only name you will make for yourself doing this is a bad one. " ==> Lol, this isn't my career, I don't care much for my reputation in an online forum.
Good point, but a majority of the aussie reptile community at least looks on here and won't buy from you anytime soon if they are smart.
I appreciate your input though, however opinions won't change my mind.
Then why are you asking in the first place? Are you looking for validation, are you stubborn or are you trying to annoy us? Either way, in this case this thread is pointless but I hope makes you consider the outcomes.
Cheers

Replies are in red. I'm not hating, just giving some advice. I own a hybrid but I am saying it how less tolerant people would. If you saw my other post, I would just leave it at a one-off, a test, and then keep it as a pet.

Regards,
BredliFreak
 
Then why start the thread?

Hoping for facts? If the consensus in negative then there should be plenty of evidence to back it up. I'm happy to change my mind

- - - Updated - - -

It is illegal in Victoria under the wildlife act.

I searched part VII (all offences) and I couldn't read anything that suggest it's illegal.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/wa197593/

- - - Updated - - -

How will you know that a platinum mac will transfer onto a stimmie.

That is exactly my point. I don't know. What if it did?

Are you looking for validation, are you stubborn or are you trying to annoy us?

I thought this had been done before, maybe I could see some pictures. Or I thought there were very good reasons not to, like they're infertile for example.

- - - Updated - - -

I will just leave this here, I'm sure it'll upset a lot of you guys. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO4XUOqV-SI
 
heres is another thought, its my opinion so don't take offence, i genuinely have a slightly different veiw of the world to most people anyway so bear that in mind.
If the experts in DNA, genetics and taxonomy can't make heads or tails, or agree on the moreila complex and it's nomenclature, then doesn't that say something for just how unique and cryptic these animals are? After all, humans are so good at working everything out, yet here is an animal millions of years worth of evolution (how long have humans been around?)
and the best of the best can't decide on wether to split them or lump them.
Its a simple animal too, right? reptilian brain, docile, acts without thought only using instinctual behaviour to get by.......... The fact that snakes are the most adaptable creatures on the planet (ie, found in more different types of ecosystems and environments then anything else) to my way of thinking deserves more respect. The fact that humans want to cross this with that just because we can (once again, to me) is disrepectful. And shows a lack of intuition and removal from ourselves from the natural state.
Weird though how many people beleive that by keeping or learning about snakes, that somehow they are closer to nature. But then the drawcard of making money takes over. For example, the purposeful breeding of ******** mutants has become so common now that some people don't know the difference. Newbies, who for very different reasons to old time herpers, will get one as a first snake, and the funny part is that some of these people have never even seen a snake in the wild. Not that that is an issue, or wrong but fair dinkum... this "hobby" at times is very strange. So much value heaped on breeding rearded animals??***??
As a reptile relocator, I have pulled just about every subspecies of python out of the wild here on the central coast of NSW. BHP's, Bredli, Inland, Proserpine,jungles, too many coastals to remember, plus multiple that I just have no idea what the hell they are descendants of.... and we only have one endemic subspecies (yes I am a splitter) here, diamonds. Not too mention the corns, and boas I know are out there.
I have heard it a thousand times - these are pets, hobby animals, never to be released into the wild.... well i'm telling ya, they DO get out into the wild. And yes I have heard it a thousand times, "they won't survive out of their area of origin," Bull#@$%!! Snakes are the most adaptable creature on the planet. I have pulled coastals breeding with diamonds out of roofs,(doesn't make an intergrade), I know of another coastal that was caught and returned to its original owner proven by photographs that it was the same snake, and it was missing (in the wild) for 6 years!
Considering that IBD and OPMV/sunshine, and probably even snake mite came in because some people just HAD TO HAVE one of those snakes, and considering that the taxon for snakes is in very infant years, just how important is it that we have to hybridise, especially if there is a chance that the act of hybridising may cause problems?

No-one can stop you from breeding whatever you want, but you will find people try to educate you... at least to the point where somewhere a cog might slowly turn, a light may come on, however dim, and a thought may be born. It'll probably be thrown in the freezer though........
 
******** mutants

Why is this term necessary? First off they are not mutants, unless chance happens they do mutate but hybrids and mutants are two separate things. Also, why is it ********? Plenty of hybrids have no issues at all, in fact, they can serve as good beginner snakes (e.g breeding a typically placid breed with another e.g a Bredli with a Darwin or something). I agree with a lot of your post but people need to get off the Hybrid-bashing bandwagon. I either find an extreme left-wing hybrid guy, who often doesn't have all the facts OR an extreme right wing guy, who thinks that they are pure evil (ironic for snake lovers, hey). What we need is more neutral people, who are smart and can find solutions to human stupidity. As you said, they are PETS. We love our pets no matter what they are or where they come from, warts and all. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what our pet is. However, we do need to educate the idiots who release their pets or let their pets escape. I believe there is nothing wrong with what this person is doing as long as they manage it correctly. I will avoid fuelling the fire any more than it needs to so I will end this rant.

Regards,
Bredli
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top