Breeding a Stimmy to a Spotted

[Redemption]

Mate, the demand for Aussie native GTPs has drop so much that I don't breed them any more. As I can see it, there are two types of buyers - "as long it's cheap and green" and "I want what no one else has (cheap too)" ... oh, and red babies are in great demand, even if most of them grow up into pretty ordinary greens. Another unfortunate event that happened on many occasions is, breeders out-crossed Aussie natives with exotic GTPs and sold the progeny as natives or the buyers declared them as natives. It's a muddy water there.

The demand for GTPs may have gone down due to people wanting the next best shiny reptile, but if the craze went back to GTPs, the pure stuff would be in hot demand. I remember years ago when GTPs were the "Thing" and everyone wanted them, it didn't matter what type. Then after a while when people realised alot of the GTPs were mixed, people wanted the pure stuff and for years you were the man because everyone knew they could rely on you for the pure Aussies.

 

[eipper]

section 46 of the wildlife regulations 2013, pg 31 is clear - and I quote-

"46 Inter-breeding of wildlife
(1) A person must not, without the prior writtenapproval of the Secretary—
(a) permit different taxa of wildlife to interbreedunless those taxa of wildlife are knownto inter-breed in the wild;
(b) permit taxa of wildlife to inter-breed withanother taxa of animal that is not wildlife;ExampleA dingo may not be bred with a dog (Canis lupisfamiliaris) or dingo-dog hybrid.
(c) sell or dispose of cross-breeds of wildlifeunless those cross-breeds are known to occurin the wild.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(2) Subregulation
(1) does not apply to a person whointer-breeds the taxa of wildlife listed in Parts Aand C of Schedule 5 with other taxa of wildlifelisted in Parts A and C of Schedule 5 and whosells or disposes of the resultant cross-breeds."

But I am sure now you will tell me that does not apply as its not what you want to hear.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[Ramsayi]

nm

 

[twistedFrog]

But I am sure now you will tell me that does not apply as its not what you want to hear.

Now I really am having a good chuckle on this thread

 

[Waterrat]

Scott, in that case, crossing stimmy with mac is OK according to (1)(a). They are know to inter-breed in the wild in areas where their distribution ranges overlap. Having said that, I still don't understand why would anyone want to do that.

 

[GBWhite]

For my own understanding George, does this comment from the authors mean that there are two lineage 'pathways' when it comes to describing a species?
I can understand species tree, well I think I can......
but gene tree? Is this new because of the ability to use DNA?

cheers

Hi Cement,

It's my understanding the gene tree was established for the purpose of using DNA to track the history of a particular characteristic but does not contribute to clarify a species tree.

Cheers.

 

[cement]

Thanks George,

another question if you don't mind, say as an example.... scientists can use DNA along a gene tree to establish something like the evolution of heat sensing pits, but can't use it to establish species because of more obvious characteristics, say between aspiditis and morelia?

 

[hulloosenator]

My observation of progeny from mating various snakes, is that the majority of the outcome is luck and unpredictable particularly with regard to "pretty" appearances. Most clutches seem to contain a range of appearances (normally from the same mating) often from beautiful to ugly, bearing in mind that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. In the old days it was easier to get locality specific anteresia as many of the snakes kept were "closer" to the wild than they are today, due to the scarcity and higher prices justifying collection. Today the locality of anteresia is generally passed on by word of mouth from the previous breeder and in most cases the parents have been selected from the "best" (whatever that means) individuals from a clutch. Captive locality species often don't resemble average wild specimens found in that locality.To me snake names are descriptive rather than genetic. There are scientific ways of coming up with a best guess of how to classify a snake, by counting scales and so on, but I am not sure that that matters to the captive breeding hobby of today!

I think you hit the nail on the head there Wokka . The so called purists try to breed the best looking snakes from the best of the best and so on ..... thus giving a misleading representation of a species in captivity.
And also ..... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Exactly !
I say .... have a go and breed whatever you like as there are and will always be people interested in crosshybridmorphs .
Its those who hate it seem to arc up the most on here , whereas those all for it seem to keep to themselves and dont promote it .... on here, anyhow

 

[eipper]

Hi Michael,

While I agree it's probably likely, I cannot recall any published hybridization zone between those two species. Knowing the way the wildlife dept in Vic work I bet would not recognize it, but at the same time would not know what they were looking at anyway.

cheers
scott

 

[arevenant]

Damnit!


... I've run out of popcorn...

 

[cement]

thus giving a misleading representation of a species in captivity.

What can a "purist" breed that doesn't or is even unlikely to occur already? If your talking about breeding for a rare trait, fair enough, but how is that misleading?

 

[Redemption]

I think you hit the nail on the head there Wokka . The so called purists try to breed the best looking snakes from the best of the best and so on ..... thus giving a misleading representation of a species in captivity.
And also ..... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Exactly !
I say .... have a go and breed whatever you like as there are and will always be people interested in crosshybridmorphs .
Its those who hate it seem to arc up the most on here , whereas those all for it seem to keep to themselves and dont promote it .... on here, anyhow

I'm sure for many others and Myself, the problem with producing hybrids is not because we sip from a glass holding our pinkies in the air only delving in the pure things in life lol, Its more the fact of, what happens to the mutts when the craze of these mixes is over and everyone wants the pure reptiles again. Thats the problem, not so much what the animals look like. The fact that people see money and ignore the long term problems is what upsets most people. The poor buggers end up unwanted and we all know what happens to unwanted pets.

 

[Newhere]

I think it's more about keeping it real for the people that just want to keep a native animal that they would never get a chance to observe to such an extent in the wild. I nearly brought a jag sib as my first snake falsely advertised as a jungle and that would of been pretty disappointing for me.

I know that people keep animals for all different kinds of reasons and their motivation for keeping will reflect their view on the matter but it's pretty selfish not to consider the effects your actions may have on others in the future.

 

[Wokka]

I'm sure for many others and Myself, the problem with producing hybrids is not because we sip from a glass holding our pinkies in the air only delving in the pure things in life lol, Its more the fact of, what happens to the mutts when the craze of these mixes is over and everyone wants the pure reptiles again. Thats the problem, not so much what the animals look like. The fact that people see money and ignore the long term problems is what upsets most people. The poor buggers end up unwanted and we all know what happens to unwanted pets.

I doubt that there are more abandoned mutt pets than there are purebred pets, particularly with regard to reptiles. There is most likely a correlation between price/value of an animal and abandonment. I did observe an oversupply of snakes, relative to buyers a couple of years ago, but it appears that now prices have adjusted snakes are again selling and finding new homes I wonder if the quality of care has changed now that average snakes are now hundreds of dollars instead of previously thousands of dollars? Fortunately communication and information has improved so that there is now no excuse for not caring for reptiles properly!

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I think it's more about keeping it real for the people that just want to keep a native animal that they would never get a chance to observe to such an extent in the wild. I nearly brought a jag sib as my first snake falsely advertised as a jungle and that would of been pretty disappointing for me.

I know that people keep animals for all different kinds of reasons and their motivation for keeping will reflect their view on the matter but it's pretty selfish not to consider the effects your actions may have on others in the future.

I don't think being native is a driver for keeping snakes. If it were legal to keep exotics i think they would be just as popular as natives. how many pet native dogs or birds are there compared to exotics? People like choice!

 

[Waterrat]

There will always be division between purists and creators, but so be it.
I look at it this way - my licence allows me to keep Australian protected species, in other words, I see myself as a custodian of our native reptiles. My ethics tell me ...... I shouldn't stuff around with it, I am not a God and I care about the future of our wild populations that can easily be compromised by introductions of misfits. JMO, I am not hammering it down anyone's throat.

 

[Sean_L]

I don't think being native is a driver for keeping snakes. If it were legal to keep exotics I think they would be just as popular as natives. how many pet native dogs or birds are there compared to exotics? People like choice!

This is because you're biased towards your own opinion. Not everyone thinks the way you think I'm afraid. That's why there are divisions such as this one. What you 'think' and what is actually the case, are very different indeed.
I appreciate that there are stunning reptiles in other countries, but if I wanted to keep them Id live over there, wherever 'there' is. I keep reptiles because they're native. And I want the reptiles I keep to be as close to what I'd see in the wild as I can possibly manage, even if that means purchasing legally wild caught reptiles with the risk that they mightn't take too well to captivity.

I don't want your exotics or you cross breeds, your hybrids, or your morphs and I don't want the risk that what I'm buying isn't what I hope it is. I wouldn't trust a keeper that cross breeds to be on the level about any of their collection because more often than not its those individuals that are in this hobby for the wrong reasons.

What you 'doubt' and what you 'think' are pretty inconsequential to me my friend.

 

[ronhalling]

[h=1]Hybrid[/h]Definition
noun, plural form: hybrids
(general) Any of mixed origin or composition, or the combination of two or more different things.
(biology) An offspring resulting from the cross between parents of different species or sub-species.
(molecular biology) A complex formed by joining two complementary strands of nucleic acids.
adjective
Of or pertaining to the offspring produced from crossbreeding.
Sdaji, I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out. I was under the impression that intraspecific hybrids weren't actually hybrids,

For Bredli freak as well.

This is what i really like about the long time members of this forum...there ability to accept when they are wrong and state it publicly +++++ to cement ........................Ron

 

[pythoninfinite]

This is because you're biased towards your own opinion. Not everyone thinks the way you think I'm afraid. That's why there are divisions such as this one. What you 'think' and what is actually the case, are very different indeed.
I appreciate that there are stunning reptiles in other countries, but if I wanted to keep them Id live over there, wherever 'there' is. I keep reptiles because they're native. And I want the reptiles I keep to be as close to what I'd see in the wild as I can possibly manage, even if that means purchasing legally wild caught reptiles with the risk that they mightn't take too well to captivity.

I don't want your exotics or you cross breeds, your hybrids, or your morphs and I don't want the risk that what I'm buying isn't what I hope it is. I wouldn't trust a keeper that cross breeds to be on the level about any of their collection because more often than not its those individuals that are in this hobby for the wrong reasons.

What you 'doubt' and what you 'think' are pretty inconsequential to me my friend.

That's a very aggressive response to Wokka's comment Sean - quite unnecessarily so I think. What you have stated in your response is exactly what you have been critical of Wokka for - stating his opinion. Your response is simply a statement of your opinion, and what you want in a reptile, so good luck to you...

I do agree with Wokka that exotic reptiles would be hugely popular if they were legalised - if you hadn't noticed, they are hugely popular now within some sectors of the keeping community.. Wokka's post was not an argument for or against, just stating the bleeding obvious. Similarly, Sean, what you like and expect from your pets and those with whom you deal are pretty inconsequential to most of us. That's your business and you're welcome to it...

I hasten to add that I don't support the keeping of exotics here in Oz myself, but I would have to be blind not to know how much appeal things like chameleons, tortoises and Emerald Tree Monitors would have here if they were available legally (although I believe the ETMs are in the process of entering the pipeline,along with White-lipped Pythons).

Jamie

 

[Wokka]

This is because you're biased towards your own opinion. Not everyone thinks the way you think I'm afraid. That's why there are divisions such as this one. What you 'think' and what is actually the case, are very different indeed.
I appreciate that there are stunning reptiles in other countries, but if I wanted to keep them Id live over there, wherever 'there' is. I keep reptiles because they're native. And I want the reptiles I keep to be as close to what I'd see in the wild as I can possibly manage, even if that means purchasing legally wild caught reptiles with the risk that they mightn't take too well to captivity.

I don't want your exotics or you cross breeds, your hybrids, or your morphs and I don't want the risk that what I'm buying isn't what I hope it is. I wouldn't trust a keeper that cross breeds to be on the level about any of their collection because more often than not its those individuals that are in this hobby for the wrong reasons.

What you 'doubt' and what you 'think' are pretty inconsequential to me my friend.

Fair enough! If you are not interested in the observations of other members of the reptile community it seems a waste of your time to participate in these discussions.I am continually in contact with a wide cross- section of the reptile community and don't have a particular barrow to push but think it is beneficial for the hobby to share information.
You are obviously very passionate if you would change countries just to keep a particular pet.It may be worth being a little less offensive in your posts and to allow others to have views different to your own. Variety is the spice of life!
I accept that you are in Queensland and so may know little of the routes of my collection, but the majority of my foundation animals were legally collected from the wild which is why I have made the many previous statements about variable appearances in wild populations.
As far as I am aware you are no friend of mine , my dear!

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[madsylar]

what happens to the mutts when the craze of these mixes is over and everyone wants the pure reptiles again.

What will happen to the pure ones if the craze of these pure animals is over and everyone wants the mutts / hybrids? The poor buggers end up unwanted and we all know what happens to unwanted pets.

/s