Breeding a Stimmy to a Spotted

[cement]

I am referring to jags and hybrids that are infertile.
******** def = a mental, Physical, or emotional problem usually associated with a genetic disorder.... to slow down, or to be less advanced.
Mutant def =A sudden structural change within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.

I am sorry if you find the term offensive, but it describes the result of breeding the jag genetics or hybrids.
No-one is bashing the animal, anyone with slight intelligence can recognise that the animal is not at fault for the way it turns out. I am simply stating how strange it is to put such a high value on these animals.

Neutral people who are smart and can find solutions to human studipity? Good luck with that pipedream!

There has to be a reason why these animals are not found occurring naturally, and I will add, that the ONLY reason they are bred or produced in captivity is in the hope that they will be a source of income, or notoriety. The reduced pattern of the jag is easily matched and beaten in pure healthy stock these days, it just takes a bit longer to acquire. People have been working for years to produce this look and it is now coming to the fore without the side effects. One major contributor to why the herp community was divided, was the fact that people smuggled into the country with no regard to Aus biosecurity, a flawed gene so that they could corner the market in RP animals, cutting the grass of dedicated people who have been working for years on solid, healthy lines.
Think what you like, we all have that right, but don't leave out the facts or the truth. I don't personally make a living off breeding snakes, I occasional breed some and sell surplus stuff at very cheap prices, so I have no real agenda except that I do care for our native wild population, and what I find out there. The reason I have this in mind is because I am totally aware of EXACTLY the role these very important animals play in our ecosystem, with out a balanced ecosystem there is no us.

 

[madsylar]

the purposeful breeding of ******** mutants

why would they be ******** mutants? Breeding a boa to ball python is way different than breeding Antaresia x with Antaresia y.

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Why is this term necessary? First off they are not mutants, unless chance happens they do mutate but hybrids and mutants are two separate things. Also, why is it ********? Plenty of hybrids have no issues at all, in fact, they can serve as good beginner snakes (e.g breeding a typically placid breed with another e.g a Bredli with a Darwin or something). I agree with a lot of your post but people need to get off the Hybrid-bashing bandwagon. I either find an extreme left-wing hybrid guy, who often doesn't have all the facts OR an extreme right wing guy, who thinks that they are pure evil (ironic for snake lovers, hey). What we need is more neutral people, who are smart and can find solutions to human stupidity. As you said, they are PETS. We love our pets no matter what they are or where they come from, warts and all. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what our pet is. However, we do need to educate the idiots who release their pets or let their pets escape. I believe there is nothing wrong with what this person is doing as long as they manage it correctly. I will avoid fuelling the fire any more than it needs to so I will end this rant.

Regards,
Bredli

this ^^

 

[pythoninfinite]

Madsylar is clearly committed to this path, and was clearly committed to it before starting the thread. Sorry that you didn't get the support you were obviously looking for buddy, but that's life. The word pariah comes to mind, but I'm sure it's of no consequence to you...

Jamie

 

[GBWhite]

Madsylar

Mate, I'm not going to say do it or don't do it because personally I don't care, it's totally up to you. You're asking for evidence against your proposal and it seems to me that all you’re getting is hearsay and assumption.

Personally from the evidence I have obtained and through personal knowledge I don’t know why people are getting their knickers in a knot.

So, I’m not trying to upset anyone and as much as this might not be accepted by some, the truth is that despite what people are trying to tell you, anyone who has been out and about and collected these guys or had the opportunity to personally examine specimens from the transition zones (as confirmed in the map contained in the attached paper by LA Smith) will tell you that, for want of a better term, they do "hybridize" naturally.

So breeding them together (as occurs in the transition zones) isn't going to have an effect on their genetics other than the colours and patterns that will be produced.

I said it before and I'll say it again, it appears pretty apparent to me that other than variations in colour and patterns they are all basically the same snake. I've attached a link to LA Smith's 1985 Revision of the Species Liasis (now Antaresia) childreni Species Group for you (or anyone else interested) to have a read and come to their own conclusion.

If anyone wants to examine main method used to identify each as separate species they will discover it relies on the calculation regarding the mean number of various scales of each individual specimen of childreni, stimsoni and maculosa examined, but realistically if you look at the manner in which the mean number has been calculated you'll see there is no real difference.

Then look at the number of time the word "usual" is used throughout the paper. Then consider the abstract of the ICZN Application 2 that I included in my original post, where it states “usually (but not always) has” do not constitute a character in the sense of article 13.1.1" and " Moreover, strictly following the glossary definition of the word description, the Code would require that a taxon must be uniquely distinguished from other taxa and generalized statements do not imply uniqueness".

His descriptions include variations of patterns within each species and even provides black and white photos as examples in some situations. So considering such variation within each “species” has been identified, does this make each species unique?

(Basically I consider it to be a piece of taxonomic garbage and is a good example of what taxonomists can get away with...but that's only my opinion)

http://museum.wa.gov.au/sites/defau...ILDRENI SPECIES-GROUP (SERPENTES BOIDAE) .pdf.

Cement,

I hear you buddy and can genuinely sympathise with your concerns but unfortunately that’s the nature of the human beast. Some of us want to play god and there are the others that want everything labelled and tagged and other simply don’t give a rat’s backside.

Back to purchasing snakes of dubious origin. All I can say is that, as John Weigel has alluded, the hobby has progressed into an industry with all the bells and whistles attached, so if people want to purchase animals with the intention to breed specific species then they should go out of their way to ensure they are obtaining the animals unique to their endeavour.

Serious collectors should know better than to purchase animals of dubious origin.

From what I see of the whole situation is that other than the odd ***** who has no idea and who enters the hobby/industry thinking they are going to purchase stock with the intention to make a profit or for no other intention than to attempt to gain notoriety, most newcomers are quite content to purchase a good healthy critter, without concern for it’s lineage because they want to own a snake. They become attached to the animal and even if they discover it might not be what they were originally informed, find it difficult to part with it just because of this.

George.

 

[madsylar]

Madsylar
Mate, I'm not going to say do it or don't do it because personally I don't care, it's totally up to you. You're asking for evidence against your proposal and it seems to me that all you’re getting is hearsay and assumption.
Personally from the evidence I have obtained and through personal knowledge I don’t know why people are getting their knickers in a knot.

Thanks for your contribution mate

 

[eipper]

George,

There is mitochondrial DNA sequencing showing Australian Python phylogeny in the lastest paper by barker and co, Reynolds et al and Rawlings and Donnelan 2008

 

[cement]

Gday George,

Yes I know, that is the reality of it. And why I bother posting my experiences of what I pick up out there, because years ago when jags came in and there was amad rush to cross and mix everything, we were being told on this very forum by these guys, that if these animals ever got into the wild it wouldn't matter, they would die off etc.

While reading that paper it remined me of a stimsoni I removed from a house at Nth Avoca. In great health, and the owners ssaid that a neighbour removed the same snake two years ago and took it across the road and let it go in the bush. For an animal that is predominantly a desert dweller, it seemed to be doing very well for itself in the forest of Nth Avoca and surrounds, which also would be close to the extreme southern point of its distribution as well. Die off ?....... maybe in theory.
Also, the word hybrid has been mis-used in this thread, stimson x mac is not hybridising.
cheers

 

[Sdaji]

It's funny to see people getting angry and borderline abusive about someone here asking the question, after just popping over from Facebook and seeing a bredli x Coastal Carpet advertised by a well known and respected breeder for $250 (not that I'm judgemental, I'm just very surprised).

I'm not really a fan of hybrids, but I'm not a fanatic either, and like it or not, opposing the hybridisers is an unwinnable battle. I'm also a fan of liberty, even when I dislike what other people want to do, as long as no one is being hurt.

A couple of 2c coins from me:

Calling stimsoni and childreni different species is plain silly, and arguably you could include maculosa with them. Gene flow does not naturally take any notice of the line drawn between stimsoni and childreni on the distribution maps.

cement: Whether you call them species, subspecies or locality variants, crossing a stimsoni and a mac is absolutely an example of hybridising. A very common misconception is that the term "hybrid" only applies when you cross two different species (most people think Stimson's and macs are different species anyway), but crossing any two animals which are different in any way is a type of hybridisation (feel free to look this up in a biological dictionary, or even any dictionary at all including an online one will do). You don't need to cross to different species or taxa to create hybrids.

Legal and cliquey reasons aside, creating hybrids is really no better or worse than creating lines of snakes with mutations nature would weed out without our intervention. Either way we are creating genetically unnatural animals which are not suited to a natural environment. Having said that, for whatever stupid sentimental reason, I have a soft spot for keeping lines pure. Don't ask me why because I can't give a good reason, and without being able to give a good reason I can't find a leg to stand on if I want to tell other people what to do, so I don't.

mtDNA usually correlates with species differences, but it doesn't have to and doesn't always. That doesn't always stop geneticists from acting like a study based on a limited survey of exclusively mtDNA conclusively proves species differences, or other phylogenetic determinations.

My final 2c offering is to suggest against crossing a stimmy and a mac. I'm not going to claim it's immoral or unethical, and it's very unlikely to cause any legal headache for you (though it might), but it's also extremely unlikely to produce offspring as good as either parent. Then again, if mudblood jaguar siblings are selling for $100-200+, what do I know?

 

[Wokka]

My observation of progeny from mating various snakes, is that the majority of the outcome is luck and unpredictable particularly with regard to "pretty" appearances. Most clutches seem to contain a range of appearances (normally from the same mating) often from beautiful to ugly, bearing in mind that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. In the old days it was easier to get locality specific anteresia as many of the snakes kept were "closer" to the wild than they are today, due to the scarcity and higher prices justifying collection. Today the locality of anteresia is generally passed on by word of mouth from the previous breeder and in most cases the parents have been selected from the "best" (whatever that means) individuals from a clutch. Captive locality species often don't resemble average wild specimens found in that locality.To me snake names are descriptive rather than genetic. There are scientific ways of coming up with a best guess of how to classify a snake, by counting scales and so on, but I am not sure that that matters to the captive breeding hobby of today!

 

[cement]

[h=1]Hybrid[/h]Definition
noun, plural form: hybrids
(general) Any of mixed origin or composition, or the combination of two or more different things.
(biology) An offspring resulting from the cross between parents of different species or sub-species.
(molecular biology) A complex formed by joining two complementary strands of nucleic acids.
adjective
Of or pertaining to the offspring produced from crossbreeding.
Sdaji, I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out. I was under the impression that intraspecific hybrids weren't actually hybrids,

For Bredli freak as well.

 

[Waterrat]

Right, wrong, legal illegal, ..... anyone wanting to cross species, subspecies, morphs (in the true sense of the word) or whatever, should have a reason for doing so. To cross stimmy with mac just because it hasn't been done before or to satisfy one's curiosity doesn't sound like a good reason - if that is Mudsylar's intention.

 

[Gaboon]

if your against hybrids then your a racist person. Two willing should be able to reproduce with out being judged.

 

[pythoninfinite]

if your against hybrids then your a racist person. Two willing should be able to reproduce with out being judged.

Bizarre...

J

 

[madsylar]

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It's funny to see people getting angry and borderline abusive about someone here asking the question, after just popping over from Facebook and seeing a bredli x Coastal Carpet advertised by a well known and respected breeder for $250 (not that I'm judgemental, I'm just very surprised).

I'm not really a fan of hybrids, but I'm not a fanatic either, and like it or not, opposing the hybridisers is an unwinnable battle. I'm also a fan of liberty, even when I dislike what other people want to do, as long as no one is being hurt.

A couple of 2c coins from me:

Calling stimsoni and childreni different species is plain silly, and arguably you could include maculosa with them. Gene flow does not naturally take any notice of the line drawn between stimsoni and childreni on the distribution maps.

cement: Whether you call them species, subspecies or locality variants, crossing a stimsoni and a mac is absolutely an example of hybridising. A very common misconception is that the term "hybrid" only applies when you cross two different species (most people think Stimson's and macs are different species anyway), but crossing any two animals which are different in any way is a type of hybridisation (feel free to look this up in a biological dictionary, or even any dictionary at all including an online one will do). You don't need to cross to different species or taxa to create hybrids.

Legal and cliquey reasons aside, creating hybrids is really no better or worse than creating lines of snakes with mutations nature would weed out without our intervention. Either way we are creating genetically unnatural animals which are not suited to a natural environment. Having said that, for whatever stupid sentimental reason, I have a soft spot for keeping lines pure. Don't ask me why because I can't give a good reason, and without being able to give a good reason I can't find a leg to stand on if I want to tell other people what to do, so I don't.

mtDNA usually correlates with species differences, but it doesn't have to and doesn't always. That doesn't always stop geneticists from acting like a study based on a limited survey of exclusively mtDNA conclusively proves species differences, or other phylogenetic determinations.

My final 2c offering is to suggest against crossing a stimmy and a mac. I'm not going to claim it's immoral or unethical, and it's very unlikely to cause any legal headache for you (though it might), but it's also extremely unlikely to produce offspring as good as either parent. Then again, if mudblood jaguar siblings are selling for $100-200+, what do I know?

Thanks for your reply

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Right, wrong, legal illegal, ..... anyone wanting to cross species, subspecies, morphs (in the true sense of the word) or whatever, should have a reason for doing so. To cross stimmy with mac just because it hasn't been done before or to satisfy one's curiosity doesn't sound like a good reason - if that is Mudsylar's intention.

I disagree. The simple reason "to see what would happen" it's a perfectly valid one imho. Worse case scenario all babies all die or are deformed, most likely scenario some dull babies are born (it's still VERY ok, it's not like very single "pure" offspring is stunning), but if maybe we get some cool looking animals.

 

[GBWhite]

George,

There is mitochondrial DNA sequencing showing Australian Python phylogeny in the lastest paper by barker and co, Reynolds et al and Rawlings and Donnelan 2008

Yeah thanks Scott. I read Barker & co and Rawlings and Donelan 2008 as well as a hell of a lot of other papers when I was digging around.

What i did note in Barker's paper was that he states, "We recognise that pythonoid gene trees struggle to reveal the true species tree"

Cheers,

George

 

[Redemption]

What does everyone think of the hybrid Hypo Northern x Hypermelanistic Eastern blueys that are being bred on mass?

 

[GBWhite]

What does everyone think of the hybrid Hypo Northern x Hypermelanistic Eastern blueys that are being bred on mass?

You could probably ask the same question about Indonesian, New guinea and Aussie Green Pythons.

 

[Redemption]

From what I have seen over the years, Everyone wanted a green tree python and didnt care what the mix was, as the years went by, the mixes weren't as interesting and valuable. Now most people want the pure Green tree pythons and not the mixes. Pure Aussie Green Tree Pythons still go for a decent price even after all these years. I can only imagine what would have happened to the unwanted mutt mixes of reptiles that are no longer as valuable.

 

[Waterrat]

From what I have seen over the years, Everyone wanted a green tree python and didnt care what the mix was, as the years went by, the mixes weren't as interesting and valuable. Now most people want the pure Green tree pythons and not the mixes. Pure Aussie Green Tree Pythons still go for a decent price even after all these years. I can only imagine what would have happened to the unwanted mutt mixes of reptiles that are no longer as valuable.

Mate, the demand for Aussie native GTPs has drop so much that I don't breed them any more. As I can see it, there are two types of buyers - "as long it's cheap and green" and "I want what no one else has (cheap too)" ... oh, and red babies are in great demand, even if most of them grow up into pretty ordinary greens. Another unfortunate event that happened on many occasions is, breeders out-crossed Aussie natives with exotic GTPs and sold the progeny as natives or the buyers declared them as natives. It's a muddy water there.

 

[cement]

What i did note in Barker's paper was that he states, "We recognise that pythonoid gene trees struggle to reveal the true species tree"

Cheers,

George

For my own understanding George, does this comment from the authors mean that there are two lineage 'pathways' when it comes to describing a species?
I can understand species tree, well I think I can......
but gene tree? Is this new because of the ability to use DNA?

cheers