Help join the protest against the new OEH laws for reptile keeping in NSW

[SpilotaFreak78]

Please help protest against the Officeof Environment and Heritage's new cage compliance for reptilekeeping in NSW.


You may already have this somewhere onthe site but I want to put it up again to reach more people.


I did not write the below letter,possibly it was written by Andrew Camelleri or John Mostyn, I'm sureeveryone knows who they are. (forgive me if I have misspelled theirnames!). It was handed out to us at our recent Herp club meetingwhere someone came along to talk to us about it.


Short of flooding this MP with theseletters, another well known name of the industry, Bob Withey, wantsto take this to the news networks and get it on 'A Current Affair',to get more coverage and make people aware of what has happened here,so please copy and paste the below letter, even if you are not anAustralian resident or a reptile keeper, all help would beappreciated, the more letters the better.


You do not have to include the firstline and please remember to sign you name or possibly your reptilekeepers license or whatever you deem appropriate. Sorry I do not havean email, so it needs to be sent by post.


____________________________________________________




Please send to_
The Hon. Robyn Parker, MP
Level 32 Governor Macquarie Tower
1 Farrer Place
Sydney NSW 2000


Re: NSW Office of Environment andHeritage Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Reptiles(Minimum Cage Sizes)


Dear Minister,
I would like to express my objectionto the implementation of the above code of practice. I am one of themany hundreds, if not thousands, of Private NSW reptile keepers whoshare the same concerns.
In the 16 years since the 1997amnesty, private reptile keepers in NSW have not been regulated byany enforceable cage sizes. The industry has been left to develop ingood faith based on voluntary guidelines and practical solutions withthe welfare of captive animals as a top priority.
During this time licensed privatekeepers have invested significant sums of money constructing orpurchasing commercially available enclosures that were not subject tominimum standards. Several businesses even specialise in sellingcustom made professional racks imported from America. These do notcomply with the new code. As a result, a large proportion of NSWreptile keepers will be in breach of the law should this code becomeenforceable.
This will require private keepers tofind the money to buy or construct new enclosures (assuming they canalso find the extra space required) or get rid of their reptilesaltogether.
In the case of the impractically largenew dimensions required for goannas and turtles, it is more likely tobe the latter.
Selling used enclosures to offsetlosses will not be viable since nobody will buy cages that do notcomply. Accordingly I believe that if the NSW Government wishes tooutlaw our enclosures that we licensed private keepers constructed orpurchased in good faith then they should be required to compensateour losses.
I propose the following options foryour consideration.

1. 1. 1. Impose a grandfathering clause that exempts enclosures bought or constructed before the new Code of Practice from the need to comply. An inspection will be required to certify cages.
         
      2. Monetary compensation through a 'buy back' to the value of 50%of the initial outlay for used cages and100% of the value for unused cages. Non-compliant cages can be returned to a designated location for disposal.
         
      3. 3.Keep the Code of Practice as a guideline rahter than an enforceable code – but require that all commercially manufactured enclosures and those sold in pet shops comply with the new Code of Practice from 2014. Within time, this will result in all private keepers becoming compliant anyway as old cages are replaced through attrition – but will soften the immediate financial burden.

I look forward to your reply,


Yours Faithfully

 

[scorps]

Are the new cage sizes really that bad?

Havent really looked to be honest though.

 

[FAY]

They are ridiculous for monitors and turtles especially.Not too bad for pythons. The fact that they will be made mandatory and not just a guideline does not really sit well with a lot of people in NSW. We would be the ONLY section in the world that has mandatory cage sizes. Really weird when a cockatoo is OK to be put in a cage as long as it can just flap it's wings.

 

[Tiliqua]

The new sizes are crap for anyone keeping monitors. I'm mainly a skink-keeper myself, and 37.5 x 37.5cm, is the minimum floorspace for a single bluey. I wouldn't house a single bluey in anything under 45cm x 90cms anyway. My cages are compliant with all my skink species as they are, will have to build new olive/scrubby enclosures or move on the animals when it comes to my pythons.

 

[Tesla]

Good luck, I tried calling this parliament member when they first announced they would be allowing reptiles in pet shops. When I called I was transferred to about 3 different people where I was told by her assistant that I would have to email her with my concerns and that it would be answered within 2 weeks........it's been over 3 months and still haven't heard a word, great to see these people are given huge salaries at our expense and can't even take the time to write back to a legitimate query of people they are meant to be representing.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

That letter needs significant editing before it goes anywhere official, especially the spacing, and few spelling errors.

I believe that members of the Expert Advisory Group appointed by (then) DECC to collaborate (haha) will be voicing their concern about the fact that OEH has implied in their justification that the Code was developed and implemented collaboratively. This is not the case - the EAG was excluded totally from further development when we UNANIMOUSLY declared our opposition to mandated enclosure sizes, for a whole number of valid reasons. We had to eventually go to FOI to get any idea about where the push for this was coming from, and how it was developing, and it was from DII (Dpt of Industry & Investment), who insisted that any legislation be mandated to enable successful prosecution.

Bureaucrats should never be permitted to introduce laws without justfying the need for them. We asked repeatedly for evidence of the need for enclosure size regulation, but it was not forthcoming, because there has been no consistent problem with enclosure sizes for reptiles. The whole Code of Practice is simply the idealogical brainchild of a couple of bureaucrats who want to stamp their names on something they personally see as significant. Its development and implementation were done in a very sly manner by the Dept, with the fanfare about herps being sold in pet shops as a bit of sweetener/smokescreen at the same time.

Jamie

 

[bk201]

I am using it as an excuse to build a new rack and get glass fish tanks custom made.

 

[Ramsayi]

As I understand it in 5 years they will review the code and raise the current minimum cage sizes to reflect the DII's cage sizes.

 

[Umbral]

I think that adding that species size variation should be added onto that email.
Im going to need to build my womas new enclosures even though they are barely the length of the enclosures they are in.

 

[FAY]

My pygmies are more than 6 months old. they are supposed to be upgraded in size at 6 months. Mind you , they are still only the size of a worm. :shock:

 

[Jacknife]

Not trying to be cynical, but I can't see this doing anything to sway their decision no matter how many people mail it in.

 

[HarryReptiles]

isnt the new cage rules only applieing to the snakes you buy after the law is enforced not the animals you have before the law is placed and every new cage you buy or build...

 

[Bart70]

isnt the new cage rules only applieing to the snakes you buy after the law is enforced not the animals you have before the law is placed and every new cage you buy or build...

No.....It applies now to all reptiles you have in your possession now or at the time of inspection, and any enclosure they are housed within regardless of when it was made or when the animal was purchased, with (from memory) a 12 month 'warning' period before penalty enforcement occurs.

It might pay a lot of people to actually read them......

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/wildlifelicences/20130185ReptileCode.pdf

 

[Ramy]

isnt the new cage rules only applieing to the snakes you buy after the law is enforced not the animals you have before the law is placed and every new cage you buy or build...

The cage sizes will apply to ALL ANIMALS registered on your reptile license.


I know I'm opening a can or worms here, but there are things I like about the enclosure sizes. I'm sure anyone who's been on the forum long enough has seen photos pulled off gumtree of various reptiles who're crammed in enclosures they can barely turn around in, or animals who are under fed or otherwise neglected. We've all complained about how petshops keep dogs and cats in undersized enclosures. We've all got some issue or other with undersized enclosures when they stress an animal out. One of the reasons they decided to introduce mandatory enclosure sizes was to protect animals kept in large collections, such as breeders or petshops, from over crowding and negligence. So in that sense, they have their goals set in the right place.

What the guidelines fail to acknowledge is that there is no one rule for any animal or situation. The guidelines don't allow for animals who fall under their species' average size. The guidelines don't allow for different sized hatchlings or growing rates. The guidelines don't acknowledge that moving a hatchling into a larger enclosure at 6 months when they aren't big enough to need it has (in certain instances) lead to the animal stressing out and refusing food until moved back into the smaller enclosure.

There needs to be a clause that says you are allowed to go against the code if you have good reason.
For example, if you have consulted with a vet or someone with experience (preferably through a reptile society) and they agree that your non-compliance is either not going to threaten the animal in question or that it is in it's best interest.
Or that you have been keeping said animal in it's current enclosure for a reasonable time so far, and have consulted with a vet who says there is no reason that they can see to change it.

It is also my opinion that the monitor requirements are too large, and that I bought an enclosure compliant with the draft that was released earlier, and it is no longer sufficient for the animal I wanted it for.

 

[Norm]

As I understand it in 5 years they will review the code and raise the current minimum cage sizes to reflect the DII's cage sizes.

This makes it sound as though they have already committed to raising the minimum sizes in 5 years. If that is so, why not use the DII`s minimum to start with?

I`m not right up on the whole issue, only that minimum cage sizes are coming in and therefore some of mine wont be compliant for the adult snakes I was going to keep in them. Has meant that without building new ones I cant keep as many adults as I was planning unless I broaden my collection from exclusively Morelia to Anteresia as well. I`m not really interested in doing this.

 

[Bart70]

Personally I don't mind the snake regs. I am not into monitors/lizards turtles but from a read through it does look like it is harsher for those keepers - I don't know enough about them to make an informed decision.

I do see some problems with them though - My opinion is there is no provision for animals that require smaller enclosure sizes for legitimate reasons, and the basis of some of the regs are too confusing for some people to follow, and other areas are open to interpretation.

For example - "Clause 4.1.1.3 - An enclosure housing a species that normally climbs (see Appendix A) must have sufficient useable vertical space for the reptile to climb" - There is no definition of what 'sufficient useable vertical space' is, and the issue is further compounded by the allowance to use the larger of wall or floor area in calculating the minimum area for a climber...Would have thought that using the wall only for climbers would promote an enclosure that was taller than longer (promoting height for climbing) and using Clause 4.3.1.1 to link the shortest floor dimension to the snakes length - ensuring that a legal 'tall' enclosure could not comply with a stupidly tiny floor width as it would need to be at least 20% of the snakes length.

Instead we have no governance around what constitutes climbing space, and enthusiasts now have to remember to calculate both wall and floor area and use the greater of the two when determining compliance for a climber.....and it is possible to make an apparent 'compliant' climber enclosure with arguably insufficient climbing space (by using floor area instead of wall to meet the Area spec) that may become a point of contention around what constitutes climbing space.

I am no Rhodes Scholar but I firmly believe they could have been written much better than they were to achieve the outcome intended and cause a lot less grief for keepers.

 

[FAY]

Guidelines are great (especially for scum that will put animals in anything) it is the fact that they are MANDATORY, that is where the problem is. Like I have said before...no one on planet earth (except in NSW) has Mandatory cage sizes. When they got information from various experienced reptile keepers, they just threw all that out the window and went with information from another source who have never kept a reptile in their life. They also said they would NOT make them mandatory and turned around and have done just that. Mind you any animal kept in a laboratory are exempt from these laws. I also think zoos are as well. Keeping birds or any other animals in NSW is NOT mandatory. Go figure...

 

[Umbral]

I know this would be hard to enforce but saying an enclosure must be (in te case of snakes.) at least 1/2 the length and 1/4 or 1/3 what ever they decide the width of the snake makes much more sence to me.

All my snakes are in enclosures about the same length as their bodies but because I have certain smaller sub species that isn't good enough.

 

[Ramy]

Guidelines are great (especially for scum that will put animals in anything) it is the fact that they are MANDATORY, that is where the problem is. Like I have said before...no one on planet earth (except in NSW) has Mandatory cage sizes. When they got information from various experienced reptile keepers, they just threw all that out the window and went with information from another source who have never kept a reptile in their life. They also said they would NOT make them mandatory and turned around and have done just that. Mind you any animal kept in a laboratory are exempt from these laws. I also think zoos are as well. Keeping birds or any other animals in NSW is NOT mandatory. Go figure...

I agree with you. It sucks that people who aren't doing any harm to their animals are at risk of being punished on a technicality (albeit a small risk, since the likelyhood of the OEH getting off their buttocks and inspecting the common keeper seems small at this point). It sucks more that someone who knows nothing about reptiles has decided they know better than the veterans in the trade.

I suppose my point is that there has to be a happy medium. SOMEWHERE. And it's a fact that the beaurocrats won't be the ones to find it. The ideal situation from our perspective would be that the code is turned back into guidelines, but then they'll feel like they're being negligent (or maybe like we've won). Whatever the solution becomes, we need to decide exactly what we want and then approach them as a collective, or they aren't likely to listen. It will probably involve convincing them to re-open the dialogue they started with the original panel. It will probably involve compromise on our part. It will definitely require a lot of someone's time.

The real solution to the problem of animal neglect involves educating pet owners (I mean your every day John and Mary who bought their son a puppy/cat/bluie without knowing anything about them) on the responsibility of pet keeping. But that's another discussion entirely.

 

[saintanger]

i'm fine with the python, lizard, gecko and dragon size enclosres but i need to upgrade my monitors enclosures lucky they are under 6 months and are ackies. also i have 18 turtles, i have a 6ft tank housing the smaller ones and an out door pond housing the bigger ones. but enclosure sizes for turtles does not include the land space in out door enclosures so i will be in breach of the new law. so i must either turn the land space into more water and throw in turtles docks or sell some turtles or set up another 6ft tank.

i am glad they did give us enforcable laws regarding enclosure sizes because i have seen so many reptiles mainly pythons, lizards, dragons and monitors crammed in tiny enclosures. but wen it comes to monitors and turtles they have gone to far.