Help join the protest against the new OEH laws for reptile keeping in NSW

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Unless its in your license conditions to allow them entry, if it's not already (I haven't looked)
After a few 'no warrant, no entry' house calls it will be added!
Like I said, those of us who are doing the right thing being licensed and telling them exactly what and where we keep via record books are getting punished.

If it's all about revenue raising, how long until we will be required to have ABN's and pay tax on sales..... Although if we were, I'm sure 98% of keepers and breeders would be registering a loss and having a nice big tax return after claiming electricity, food supplies, enclosure materials and upgrades, internet for research/record keeping and such ;)

If it turns out my taking out a licence takes away my right to privacy in my own home, I for one will not be renewing when it comes due.

A moratorium by keepers going on strike wrt renewing their licences when due might be the only measure that will force change if enough chose to go on strike and NOT PAY to renew.That would be a substantial hit to their revenue stream.


This whole thing smacks of alarmism to me.
 
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Not trying to be cynical, but I can't see this doing anything to sway their decision no matter how many people mail it in.
Tiliqua likes this. !!!!!!!!!
Really weird when a cockatoo is OK to be put in a cage as long as it can just flap it's wings.!!!!!!!!!! I thinking the same thing
 
I mainly keep beardies and while my enclosures meet current regs(centrals in 1200x600x700 & pygmies in divided 1200x600x600),whats to stop the boofocrats coming back in a couple of years and doubling minimum sizes?
parks and wildlife's job is to look after parks and wildlife, not pet reptiles.... so that is what they are doing. keeping native reptiles outside their natural range is a big risk with hybridisation so the more regs the less people will keep therefore limiting the problem. give it a couple of years and NSW will only be allowed to keep what they sell in the pet shops/local species the rest will be on specialised licenses which cost big $$$$
 
^^^ ^^

I am pretty sure that both of the stores I have been to are Major Breeders themselves , and even had a bit to do with our new rules and regulations ( and I do know that they were not listened to all that much by the regulators ) . Having such a limited variety to offer inside their stores there may still be dealings done in the carparks .
Unless there is another agenda behind all of this -- to remove many species from the hobby altogether :lol: ( conspiracy theory number 1) :rolleyes: ^

Reused from another post by me, but there it is again :lol: (1)
 
Drs Peter Harlow from Taronga and Glenn Shea from Sydney Uni met with the Minister in January this year, to express their concerns about the contemptuous way in which the advice of the EAG was treated by NPWS (DoEH) during the development of this Code of Practice, and were assured that she would look into getting some sort of "collaborative" satisfactory outcome. There was utter silence from her until the crowing started about the great breakthrough of herps being sold in petshops, along with the sting in the tail - the legal enforcement of new rules for reptile keepers. She relies on advice from her bureaucrats, and apparently listens to noone else, even two of the most experienced and well respected herp people, not just in Oz, but the world.

The Department (like most wildlife authorities across the country) has missed out on a great chance to be seen to work collaboratively with reptile keepers to ensure good outcomes for reptile pets in NSW, and has relied on the sledgehammer approach - bugger the PR consequences for the department and keepers. They continually alienate keepers - the very people who can help them in their work, because they have the "power." The fact that a better, more trusting relationship between keepers and NPWS operatives would benefit all, including our reptile charges, simply escapes them. Of course it will lead to more secrecy and covert activity with keepers, because that's exactly how the Department operated to get this thing installed into law. However, the bureaucrat pushing this barrow for NPWS has now left and is working for the RSPCA, which probably says something in itself...

Of course, there were already perfectly useful avenues for charges of cruelty to any animal to be successfully prosecuted in the courts, but this was an idealogical pursuit driven by a couple of individuals who decided that things need to change.

OEH is currently undergoing a major restructure, with the loss of a significant number of jobs, so the appointment of 15 new inspectors sounds far-fetched to me. They barely have the resources to do the basics now...

I know that, should any prosecution under the new regs seem unreasonable to members of the EAG, that a number of them have pledged to appear in court in support of the person unreasonably charged, so in that event, it could be an interesting time for keepers...

Having said all that about the PRINCIPLE of our treatment at the hands of just a couple of government bureaucrats, I have to say that keepers in NSW are still in a far better position that those in WA, where fear of punishment still reigns supreme. I have, in the course of my day-to-day activities, some contact with NSW NPWS staff, and to a man/woman, they are polite, courteous, thoughtful and generally pragmatic. It would be a mistake to think that the field staff of this Department will enjoy this new-found power over keepers, which has the potential to sour the public relationship even further. The field staff are the ones in the hot seat, put there by the senseless directives from head office.

I believe that little will change over time, keepers will not (and should not) go to the trouble and expense of building new enclosures when the ones they already use are perfectly satisfactory, and their animals remain in very good health... And after all is said & done, isn't the health of our animals what it's all about???

Jamie
 
It is sad that so much of the hobbies wisdom has been allienated by the transient consultants engauged by NPWS who have no long term commitment to the growth and maintainence of our hobby. At a time when all department budgets are under pressure it seems foolish to ignore a free rescouce which has 100s of years of collective practical experience and qualifications. After seeing what NPWS do to smugglers who risk the Australian health status, I doubt that keepers have too much to fear if there cages a a little short. It may be better to stick with what works, rather than to risk a change simply to tick the boxes.
 
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My pair of blotch blueys have been in a 120x45x45 for 3 years and only use about half the tank to bask and sleep under the same log in the basking area
so 2 E class skinks = 0.375 x 1.5 = 0.5625m
1) my current enclosure 120 x 45 = 0.540
2) the new enclosure i need 120 x 47 = 0.564

so less than 2 cm wider is what makes enclosure 2 legal

Even a claus that gives people with older enclosures 10% +/- would save people hassle money and time
 
My pair of blotch blueys have been in a 120x45x45 for 3 years and only use about half the tank to bask and sleep under the same log in the basking area
so 2 E class skinks = 0.375 x 1.5 = 0.5625m
1) my current enclosure 120 x 45 = 0.540
2) the new enclosure i need 120 x 47 = 0.564

so less than 2 cm wider is what makes enclosure 2 legal

Even a claus that gives people with older enclosures 10% +/- would save people hassle money and time

Hopefully they wont send you to jail if you get caught out, as I hear some of the cells might not comply with the COP. I dont know what factor you apply if a person is in the cage/cell with the bluie.lol
 
Hopefully they wont send you to jail if you get caught out, as I hear some of the cells might not comply with the COP. I dont know what factor you apply if a person is in the cage/cell with the bluie.lol

The cell would have to be at least 50% larger per additional bluetongue/human :)
 
If it turns out my taking out a licence takes away my right to privacy in my own home, I for one will not be renewing when it comes due.

A moratorium by keepers going on strike wrt renewing their licences when due might be the only measure that will force change if enough chose to go on strike and NOT PAY to renew.That would be a substantial hit to their revenue stream.


This whole thing smacks of alarmism to me.
You may need to think one step further. If they see you had animals on hand when your license expires and you don't renew it you will be high up on their list to get a warrant to come into your home.

At the end of it they will get more revenue out of you in the form of fines than if you had just renewed your licence.
 
I think that your argument will have more weight if you state what parts you like and what parts you want changed. That way they might be more willing to work with you. I think there should be minimum sizes to prevent the people who are just in it for the money from housing reptiles in unsuitable conditions.
 
If it turns out my taking out a licence takes away my right to privacy in my own home, I for one will not be renewing when it comes due.
.


And it took you till now to realise that inspections were a part of your licence terms?

Has been that way for many years now......

The cell would have to be at least 50% larger per additional bluetongue/human :)

Yes...but would the shortest floor dimension need to be a minimum 20% of the length of the human?

....and what is the definition of the length of a human?....Are they measured lying down or standing up?? :D
 
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So your an expert in English or have a literary degree? I didn't write it so why criticize it, if you have concerns, go talk to John Mostyn, Head of the Hawksbury Herps Society, or to Andrew Camelleri over at Cano's reptiles, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to listen to your whining. Thepoint of this thread is to ask people to take part in a protest.

I don't think he was attacking anyone. He was merely pointing out that, to be taken seriously by an official government department, the errors need to be fixed rather than having people just copying and pasting it.
 
So your an expert in English or have a literary degree? I didn't write it so why criticize it, if you have concerns, go talk to John Mostyn, Head of the Hawksbury Herps Society, or to Andrew Camelleri over at Cano's reptiles, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to listen to your whining. Thepoint of this thread is to ask people to take part in a protest.

Are you sure you didn't write it? ;)

I do think if we wish to be taken seriously on this issue we should put together a letter that doesn't look like a school kid wrote it.

I'm not having a go at you (or the authors), but if it looked like a couple of thousand herpers looked at that letter, put their signature on it and didn't notice the errors, we could come across as looking rather silly.

Sax beat me to it :)
 
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So your an expert in English or have a literary degree? I didn't write it so why criticize it, if you have concerns, go talk to John Mostyn, Head of the Hawksbury Herps Society, or to Andrew Camelleri over at Cano's reptiles, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to listen to your whining. Thepoint of this thread is to ask people to take part in a protest.

I'm sorry you can't differentiate between a comment and a criticism matey. I truly realise what the point of the thread was, but the point of the letter is to send it to the Minister if I'm not mistaken. So it should be tip-top before that is done. John is a friend of mine, so I think you need to get off your high-horse. Don't accuse me of whining matey - I, like others who worked on the EAG, put in hundreds of unpaid hours on this bloody "Code of Practice," just to be shown that our time was wasted. And for me it was the cost in time & fuel for numerous trips from Telegraph Point to Sydney.

The biggest problem we have in getting any kind of useful consensus in the herpetological community is aggressive bozos like you bringing a nasty sentiment from within our own community. What's your problem? It's a simple matter to pull the errors out of that letter... but maybe you can't see them. I can, and I'm even very happy to do it for you if you ask nicely.

Jamie
 
Just a thought and I understand that a lot of this to and fro is people passionate in their beleifs, however, should this passion not be directed more constructively towards those attempting to enforce these laws, which in the opinion of what seems to be many on this forum, unjustly??? (My 2 cents)
 
Please don't turn the thread into the usual slinging match.
Jamie is right. The spelling, punctuation and grammar would be better if corrected, considering it's an official FORMAL letter to a government department.
That doesn't mean people have to get their backs up and turn it into a measuring contest in the bathroom out back ;)
Just fix the errors before sending it or someone can re-paste it with the letter corrected, it's not hard and it wasn't an attack on the OP either :)
 
As I said, I'm happy to do it. I was an editor before I got involved with bad influences and lost my job :(! I have to go and see a neighbour now, but will do it when I come back in a half-hour or so. Probably just should have just done it & shut up...

J
 
Drs Peter Harlow from Taronga and Glenn Shea from Sydney Uni met with the Minister in January this year, to express their concerns about the contemptuous way in which the advice of the EAG was treated by NPWS (DoEH) during the development of this Code of Practice, and were assured that she would look into getting some sort of "collaborative" satisfactory outcome. There was utter silence from her until the crowing started about the great breakthrough of herps being sold in petshops, along with the sting in the tail - the legal enforcement of new rules for reptile keepers. She relies on advice from her bureaucrats, and apparently listens to noone else, even two of the most experienced and well respected herp people, not just in Oz, but the world.

The Department (like most wildlife authorities across the country) has missed out on a great chance to be seen to work collaboratively with reptile keepers to ensure good outcomes for reptile pets in NSW, and has relied on the sledgehammer approach - bugger the PR consequences for the department and keepers. They continually alienate keepers - the very people who can help them in their work, because they have the "power." The fact that a better, more trusting relationship between keepers and NPWS operatives would benefit all, including our reptile charges, simply escapes them. Of course it will lead to more secrecy and covert activity with keepers, because that's exactly how the Department operated to get this thing installed into law. However, the bureaucrat pushing this barrow for NPWS has now left and is working for the RSPCA, which probably says something in itself...

Of course, there were already perfectly useful avenues for charges of cruelty to any animal to be successfully prosecuted in the courts, but this was an idealogical pursuit driven by a couple of individuals who decided that things need to change.

OEH is currently undergoing a major restructure, with the loss of a significant number of jobs, so the appointment of 15 new inspectors sounds far-fetched to me. They barely have the resources to do the basics now...

I know that, should any prosecution under the new regs seem unreasonable to members of the EAG, that a number of them have pledged to appear in court in support of the person unreasonably charged, so in that event, it could be an interesting time for keepers...

Having said all that about the PRINCIPLE of our treatment at the hands of just a couple of government bureaucrats, I have to say that keepers in NSW are still in a far better position that those in WA, where fear of punishment still reigns supreme. I have, in the course of my day-to-day activities, some contact with NSW NPWS staff, and to a man/woman, they are polite, courteous, thoughtful and generally pragmatic. It would be a mistake to think that the field staff of this Department will enjoy this new-found power over keepers, which has the potential to sour the public relationship even further. The field staff are the ones in the hot seat, put there by the senseless directives from head office.

I believe that little will change over time, keepers will not (and should not) go to the trouble and expense of building new enclosures when the ones they already use are perfectly satisfactory, and their animals remain in very good health... And after all is said & done, isn't the health of our animals what it's all about???

Jamie

Well said.

I might make an observation that perhaps the ring leaders in this "activitism" attempt are driven more by their personal political agendas (against regulation) and by their self interest.
 
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