Help join the protest against the new OEH laws for reptile keeping in NSW

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As I said, I'm happy to do it. I was an editor before I got involved with bad influences and lost my job :(!
Can you please do one Jamie :)


For what it's worth:
Perhaps keepers can put aside their egos in this matter and unite for a change instead of the usual infighting, which is rife within the hobby (mainly within online forums) and has driven a lot of well respected keepers away from the forums, especially this one!
 
That doesn't mean people have to get their backs up and turn it into a measuring contest in the bathroom out back ;)
:)
Given Jamie's confession, in his redback bite thread, that he may develop horse like characteristics from the serum he received, I think he should be excluded from any measuring contests.
 
Given Jamie's confession, in his redback bite thread, that he may develop horse like characteristics from the serum he received, I think he should be excluded from any measuring contests.

Now that's not fair wokka... just as I'm getting a chance to reach a new prime at the age of 64... and you want to take it away from me :)!

J
 
Given Jamie's confession, in his redback bite thread, that he may develop horse like characteristics from the serum he received, I think he should be excluded from any measuring contests.

I don't mind as long as you all clean and disinfect the ruler before putting it back in the draw :p
 
Here's a modified letter, grammar & spacing cleaned up. I have a problem with point 3 - it negates the need for points one & two if implemented, so it's unclear what you want, compensation because it is becoming law or for the Code to be guidelines only. If the Code is to be guidelines only, the Dept cannot mandate the sizes of enclosures sold by commercial outlets. Which do you want? Unless you are specific, clear about what you want, and well-reasoned, you have no chance of getting anywhere (which is probably the case anyway, but I enjoy a good debate...)

Jamie
 

Attachments

  • APS Code of Practice letter.docx
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If this is going to be done , might I suggest that the leading lights here in this "activitism" movement give precise and detailed charges to the "guidelines" as part of their submission, so the relevant personages can see exactly what is wrong with their "guidelines" , else this is going to be entirely a waste of time and bother.

It's worthless complaigning and saying you don't like te rules without giving precise reasons and precise changes required.
 
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If this is going to be done , might I suggest that the leading lights here in this "activitism" movement give precise and detailed charges to the "guidelines" as part of their submission, so the relevant personages can see exactly what is wrong with their "guidelines" , else this is going to be entirely a waste of time and bother.

It's worthless complaigning and saying you don't like te rules without giving precise reasons and precise changes required.[/QUOTE
John Moyston was part of the advisory group and as such part of the unanimous support for a detailed letted sent prabably a year ago. ( I am sure Jamie could give the exact date) This letter went through the code guidelines (as they were then) by guideline analysing it from a scientific angle, with input primarily from Glen Shea. To my knowledege no detailed response was ever received. I presume John Moyston was pursuing another angle, with the letter in this thread, as the President of the Hawkesbury Herp Club. It is hard to challenge the government employees who are getting paid to push their point, with a voluntary committee who, as Jamie has pointed out, shoulder considerable personal cost to represent their industry.
 
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If this is going to be done , might I suggest that the leading lights here in this "activitism" movement give precise and detailed charges to the "guidelines" as part of their submission, so the relevant personages can see exactly what is wrong with their "guidelines" , else this is going to be entirely a waste of time and bother.

It's worthless complaigning and saying you don't like te rules without giving precise reasons and precise changes required.

Huh? Have you read any of this thread? Have you read the letter? It is quite clear what the reasons are and what the proposed changes would be.
 
well............i havnt read the new rules regarding cage sizes............and wont.
I dont care . They wont enforce it. They dont have the manpower . Think what you like , but , geeeez ....... get real.

just dont know what you are all huffing and puffing over........ if you did all your research in the first place , you would have made proper sized cages in the first place........ lol

but.... what is the correct size ? Looks like only NPWS know the answer...... hahaha
 
A few people have mentioned 'going to the media' if nothing gets done. I may be naive, but am I the only one who thinks that might actually hurt rather than help? The average Joe has no idea about the needs of snakes in captivity and trying to draw attention to the issue publicly will result in a lot of people thinking that snake keepers are making a big fuss over not being able to keep snakes in tiny tubs. To someone who doesn't know, larger enclosures for any animals automatically sounds better. All it would take from the opposing side is a couple of pictures and videos of snakes being kept in atrocious conditions to sway the public regardless of how many well-respected herpers tried to educate them. Might not even take that, pictures of reptiles being sold in chinese containers at expos could cause a stir I'm sure. You'd have to win the education battle somehow.

Just a thought.
 
The code does recognise that each situation is different. In the preface it specifically states that there are exemptions and I agree with the code. I believe that pets should be kept in larger enclosures and be happy.

I'm from NSW and recently moved to QLD but I think regardless of state, there needs to be guidelines. Reptiles aren't domesticated animals and haven't been kept as pets for as long as dogs and cats (for example).

I'm really interested to find out exactly why so many people are up in arms about this. Is it just the matter of principle? Because all I can see is that this code is focused on keeping our pets safe and happy.

A bigger enclosure for our pets is not something we should whinge about. At all. It's a tiny space in our house compared to how much room we have for ourselves. Our neighbours let their cats and dogs roam around their house while most keep their reptile in a heated box.

Whinge and petition all you want, I don't see how you're fighting for any greater good.
 
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The code does recognise that each situation is different. In the preface it specifically states that there are exemptions and I agree with the code. I believe that pets should be kept in larger enclosures and be happy.

I'm from NSW and recently moved to QLD but I think regardless of state, there needs to be guidelines. Reptiles aren't domesticated animals and haven't been kept as pets for as long as dogs and cats (for example).

I'm really interested to find out exactly why so many people are up in arms about this. Is it just the matter of principle? Because all I can see is that this code is focused on keeping our pets safe and happy.

A bigger enclosure for our pets is not something we should whinge about. At all. It's a tiny space in our house compared to how much room we have for ourselves. Our neighbours let their cats and dogs roam around their house while most keep their reptile in a heated box.

Whinge and petition all you want, I don't see how you're fighting for any greater good.

*sigh* I guess you don't ever want to own a monitor or house turtles outside. As established earlier in the thread, snake, dragon, gecko dimensions are reasonable. The monitor sizes will ensure that very few people will be able to keep the larger monitors let alone breed them.

Also it is the fact that these 'guidelines' aren't guidelines at all but enforceable by law. And they were done by a group of paper pushers who thought they knew better than some of the countries more experienced keepers and herpetologist.

While I don't live in NSW, I can see the other states bringing in their own enforceable code.
 
The code does recognise that each situation is different. In the preface it specifically states that there are exemptions and I agree with the code. I believe that pets should be kept in larger enclosures and be happy.

I'm from NSW and recently moved to QLD but I think regardless of state, there needs to be guidelines. Reptiles aren't domesticated animals and haven't been kept as pets for as long as dogs and cats (for example).

I'm really interested to find out exactly why so many people are up in arms about this. Is it just the matter of principle? Because all I can see is that this code is focused on keeping our pets safe and happy.

A bigger enclosure for our pets is not something we should whinge about. At all. It's a tiny space in our house compared to how much room we have for ourselves. Our neighbours let their cats and dogs roam around their house while most keep their reptile in a heated box.

Whinge and petition all you want, I don't see how you're fighting for any greater good.

You totally miss the point. You use of the term "happy," twice in your post, when referring to a sentiment that we cannot be sure a reptile even feels, is simply anthropomorphism, which removes objectivity from the discussion. For me, a far stronger indication that we are doing it right is "health," without which "happiness" cannot exist. Collectively, our reptiles have never been healthier, or bred better, since we learned what parameters are necessary to keep them healthy.

I don't think you're "really interested to find out exactly why people are up in arms about this." It has been pointed out, by me, that a dozen of the country's most experienced herp experts, with about three centuries of collective knowledge, were asked by NPWS to collaborate with them to produce a Code of Practice to assist keepers with husbandry practices. I have explained the background to our unanimous rejection of the Code being mandated in law, rather than used as an educational guideline, on several threads on this site.

Your objection is based purely on personal sentiment, and that's fine - you're entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to advocate to have your personal opinions set into law which will affect many thousands of keepers in NSW, simply because you have a particular belief. That is exactly what has happened in NSW. Bureaucrats with a particular set of personal beliefs set about to install into law, without demonstrating that there was any need, a range of constraints on keepers which are only a reflection of their own values. The entire Code is a totally arbitary document, and as such will do nothing to assist or improve the health (and "happiness" if you like) of our captives.

I literally do have far more concern about the dreadful things that many keepers do to their rats, the keeping AND ESPECIALLY the killing of, than I do about the way the average keeper looks after his/her reptiles.

Jamie
 
I would like to include part of an email that Macarthur Herp members received to further convince people of what is really going on. This info was dated 27th of June.
_________________________
For those of you who missed our meeting last Friday night, we had a very interesting chat by guest speaker Darren Earnshaw his husbandry and breeding of various Tiliqua species.
Darren was also accompanied by reknown keeper Bob Withey who spoke to us regarding the Code of Practice (Minimum Cage Sizes).

As promised to those at the meeting, I have attached a copy of the letter Bob has urged us all to sign and forward to the Minister for the Environment. The copy I have attached is in a format whereby you can edit to insert your name and address, and make any changes you feel appropriate.

Please remember, whilst these cage sizes may have no effect on you at this time, there is no guarantee this is true for the future.

As stated on Friday night, the Reptile Societies during consultation were initially advised the cage sizes would be GUIDELINES NOT ENFORCEABLE LAWS!

Macarthur Herpetological Committee members were NEVER included in the discussions and have had no input. This is YOUR opportunity to have a say in this matter.

If the laws are deemed enforceable, where does it stop? Do they get to control your collection further in the future?

I therefore URGE you all to alter the letter to suit your opinions and send your letter as soon as possible. Feel free to have every adult you know wade in on this on your (our) behalf.

Kind Regards,

Rhonda Glover
President
Macarthur Herpetological Society Inc.
___________________________
whether people think this COD is ok atm, this does not mean the Govt will stop. They have only put up these enforcable laws in order to pick on the minority that is reptile owners and because this was brought in early in the morning, forced in without consult right after the reptiles being allowed to be sold in pet stores was brought in late night the day before, it was rushed in without any consideration or consult. Why not pick on bird, amphibian and mammal owners as well, because they won't, they are just using us as a target and those who don't support a protest are pretty much giving up and being an obediant little zombie of society. Rhonda is right, where are they going to stop. They will not unless we stand up for our right to have reptiles as pets.
 
Ok, my apologies for using "happy" so freely in my post.

I have actually read all previous posts.

I am still not understanding why minimum sizes are bad?
 
Ok, my apologies for using "happy" so freely in my post.

I have actually read all previous posts.

I am still not understanding why minimum sizes are bad?

Minimum sizes are fine, it's just for monitors and turtles they are far to big to consider a minimum size.

1400x700mm enclosure for 1 Ridge Tailed Monitor when a trio will comfortably live in a 1200x600mm with no ill effects on the reptiles. Add 50% extra for a second animal an a further 20% for a third. That is well an truly bigger then this species requires.


Rick
 
Minimum sizes are fine, it's just for monitors and turtles they are far to big to consider a minimum size.

1400x700mm enclosure for 1 Ridge Tailed Monitor when a trio will comfortably live in a 1200x600mm with no ill effects on the reptiles. Add 50% extra for a second animal an a further 20% for a third. That is well an truly bigger then this species requires.


Rick
I'd like to add Rick that at some stage I have had 2 adult carpets in a 4ft cage temporarily. WHile the new COP states that a D type python needs to have a minimum of one animal in a 4ft space of 125 x 50 cms, my pair appeared to be ok with the space at the time.


And for Lawra's benefit, I will add that the Government is trying to phase out those who use breeding racks for multiple breeding projects, they really do not want private breeders operating at all actually. For those of us who buy carpet python morphs like myself, I am thankful that some out there are breeding with approprioately sized rack systems, because how else would we be able to get so many pretty patterns for carpets and make them available for the rest of us and have something to aspire to to breed for ourselves or wish to own someday when its affordable?
 
Thank you for your patience and taking the time to explain :)
 
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