UVB wattage for Ackies monitor

[BambiniMartini]

Hi!

Hope this isn't posted to the wrong thread, but I was hoping to get some advice on what kind of UVB globe I need for an Ackies monitor. The enclosure I have is a tall 5x3x3 if that helps. I figured that having a bigger enclosure, the better.

I've tried to look into it myself pretty thoroughly but I'm having a lot of trouble understanding exactly how the lighting "physics" actually work, if that makes sense. I've read into how you should use a 10-12% globe, but I want to install a tube globe and of course there's different sizes and wattages and that's where it gets confusing for me. That, and I find that a lot of websites I do research on either describe or have links for "must have" or "recommended" accessories, and it kinda raises an eyebrow for me because by all means I want to provide the most natural environment for the little guy as I can, but I don't really want to get suckered into spending more money on expensive products when I don't actually need to if you catch my drift.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks

 

[Sdaji]

Most people keeping Ackies don't use UV at all. I've kept and bred consecutive generations of small monitors with no UV, kept them to ripe old ages in good health, etc etc.

As long as their diet and everything else is good, whatever UV you do or don't use will be fine. Personally I'd just go with none because it's an unnecessary expense and hassle.

Incidentally, you don't want to provide the most natural environment possible, because that would give your monitors about a 95% chance of dying within a few weeks or months, as the natural environment does. It's a myth that natural environments are idea for animals. Natural environments are harsh and animals struggle to cope with them, the vast majority of them die before reproducing. Even the natural temperatures are not ideal in almost any cases, Ackies very much included.

 

[BambiniMartini]

Most people keeping Ackies don't use UV at all. I've kept and bred consecutive generations of small monitors with no UV, kept them to ripe old ages in good health, etc etc.

As long as their diet and everything else is good, whatever UV you do or don't use will be fine. Personally I'd just go with none because it's an unnecessary expense and hassle.

Incidentally, you don't want to provide the most natural environment possible, because that would give your monitors about a 95% chance of dying within a few weeks or months, as the natural environment does. It's a myth that natural environments are idea for animals. Natural environments are harsh and animals struggle to cope with them, the vast majority of them die before reproducing. Even the natural temperatures are not ideal in almost any cases, Ackies very much included.

Thanks for the reply!

I gotta say that's a pretty interesting response! Your Ackies haven't had any issues with MBD or anything like that without the UVB? As for the heating, I've read into how they need a basking spot of about 50°c, but from what you're suggesting, even that's actually too hot for them?

 

[Sdaji]

Thanks for the reply!

I gotta say that's a pretty interesting response! Your Ackies haven't had any issues with MBD or anything like that without the UVB? As for the heating, I've read into how they need a basking spot of about 50°c, but from what you're suggesting, even that's actually too hot for them?

No MBD or 'anything like that' with zero UV. As I said, long, healthy lives without issues.

I would use higher than 50 degrees C for the basking spot. If it doesn't hurt your hand, I'd go hotter. I'm not sure how you read into my post as me suggesting they don't need a hot basking spot. They do. You'll get away with 50 degrees, but hotter is better IMO. Most small (and most large) monitors love intense basking temperatures. They're hot lizards. Almost all monitor species often have access to basking temperatures of around 70+ degrees. Ackies typically have this most days most months. Of course, having something in nature and needing it don't go hand in hand - 70 degrees will kill most snakes, geckoes, even the majority of skinks and a lot of dragons and most of these also have access to those basking temperatures (a good example of a part of nature you don't want to replicate) but monitors like Ackies do utilise basking temperatures well in excess of 50 degrees.

 

[BambiniMartini]

No MBD or 'anything like that' with zero UV. As I said, long, healthy lives without issues.

I would use higher than 50 degrees C for the basking spot. If it doesn't hurt your hand, I'd go hotter. I'm not sure how you read into my post as me suggesting they don't need a hot basking spot. They do. You'll get away with 50 degrees, but hotter is better IMO. Most small (and most large) monitors love intense basking temperatures. They're hot lizards. Almost all monitor species often have access to basking temperatures of around 70+ degrees. Ackies typically have this most days most months. Of course, having something in nature and needing it don't go hand in hand - 70 degrees will kill most snakes, geckoes, even the majority of skinks and a lot of dragons and most of these also have access to those basking temperatures (a good example of a part of nature you don't want to replicate) but monitors like Ackies do utilise basking temperatures well in excess of 50 degrees.

Ok cool, thanks a lot for the correction

May I ask what kind of globes you use/used? Also while I'm at it, what kind of diet you've given them?

 

[user 43767]

To the OP: Hi, I advise you DO provide youtr monitor with access to real or arificial UVB.
As far as a fluorescent UVB tube goes, I recommend a T5 Arcadia or Zoo Med tube @ 12 to 14% uvb, if you can`t get those, a T8 tube @ 10 to 12% UVB.. The tube only needs to be around 1/2 to 2/3rds the enclosure length, in your case a 3ft will suffice. It needs to be close to the basking bulb/s so the animal gets the benefit of both at the same time, height as per manufacturers instructions ..
Note that supplements are mostly pure guesswork, some of no benefit whatsoever, no matter what anyone might say to the contrary. UVB has benefits apart from ensuring the blood serum levels are maintained.

No MBD or 'anything like that' with zero UV. As I said, long, healthy lives without issues.

I would use higher than 50 degrees C for the basking spot. If it doesn't hurt your hand, I'd go hotter. I'm not sure how you read into my post as me suggesting they don't need a hot basking spot. They do. You'll get away with 50 degrees, but hotter is better IMO. Most small (and most large) monitors love intense basking temperatures. They're hot lizards. Almost all monitor species often have access to basking temperatures of around 70+ degrees. Ackies typically have this most days most months. Of course, having something in nature and needing it don't go hand in hand - 70 degrees will kill most snakes, geckoes, even the majority of skinks and a lot of dragons and most of these also have access to those basking temperatures (a good example of a part of nature you don't want to replicate) but monitors like Ackies do utilise basking temperatures well in excess of 50 degrees.

Hi, I agree about the relatively high basking surface temps, I totally disagree that UVB has no benefits, in your case you suggest much of the time that supplements are the way to go.
Once again, I would like you to show some examples of the healthy, long lived monitors you claim to have produced.

 

[BambiniMartini]

To the OP: Hi, I advise you DO provide youtr monitor with access to real or arificial UVB.
As far as a fluorescent UVB tube goes, I recommend a T5 Arcadia or Zoo Med tube @ 12 to 14% uvb, if you can`t get those, a T8 tube @ 10 to 12% UVB.. The tube only needs to be around 1/2 to 2/3rds the enclosure length, in your case a 3ft will suffice. It needs to be close to the basking bulb/s so the animal gets the benefit of both at the same time, height as per manufacturers instructions ..
Note that supplements are mostly pure guesswork, some of no benefit whatsoever, no matter what anyone might say to the contrary. UVB has benefits apart from ensuring the blood serum levels are maintained.

Hi, thanks for your reply

I've seen the Arcadia brand before, they're pretty cost efficient and the kits they have are pretty convenient too. Just to clarify, my enclosure is 5ft in height not length. I found this listing on Amazon, would it be suitable enough for the enclosure?

Arcadia ProT5 UVB Kit - 12% UVB Desert, 24 Inch (Bulb & Fixture) https://amzn.asia/d/5or65xK

 

[Sugar]

This could be a doosey…

I personally use those spiral globes 10% UVB for my guy, and like murrindindi said, fix it close to your heat globe so it will get the benefits from it while basking.
To be honest it is a tough topic to answer for me because I believe that if they would get it from the sun in the wild then we as Keepers should provide it for them regardless of if they use it or not.
UVB is never a bad thing (unless it is too intense or they are nocturnal…)

 

[dragonlover1]

I am a big believer in UV, every critter in my collection has UV. The type varies from enclosure to enclosure,some have spiral,some have T8 ,some have T5, some have MVB. There are 7 species of dragon, 2 of monitors, 3 of Antaresia's in my house, over 30 individuals (plus all the babies) and they all get UV whether other people think they need it or not. They get it in nature and it doesn't hurt so why not supply it in captivity
But back to the OP, I'd suggest a 2 foot T5 with high output,10UV 14% or so

 

[user 43767]

Hi, thanks for your reply

I've seen the Arcadia brand before, they're pretty cost efficient and the kits they have are pretty convenient too. Just to clarify, my enclosure is 5ft in height not length. I found this listing on Amazon, would it be suitable enough for the enclosure?

Arcadia ProT5 UVB Kit - 12% UVB Desert, 24 Inch (Bulb & Fixture) https://amzn.asia/d/5or65xK

Hi again, yes the UVB tube you link to would be excellent.
Just out of interest, the closest thing to unfiltered natural sunlight currently available are the reptile specific metal halides, not cheap but do last a fair amount of time..
I must add that supplements are pure guesswork, the industry is not regulated, the manufacturers can claim anything, it`s truly naive of us to think they`ve tested the products on all species in all families.
Offer UVB and feed the feeders well.

Two separate studies regarding supplementary D3... The studies were thorough, the results reliable.
I wonder how many other species and families this applies to (I would guess quite a few, at least)?

http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/komodo-vit-D3-and-UVB-nijboer.pdf

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20206712/

 

[Sdaji]

This could be a doosey…

I personally use those spiral globes 10% UVB for my guy, and like murrindindi said, fix it close to your heat globe so it will get the benefits from it while basking.
To be honest it is a tough topic to answer for me because I believe that if they would get it from the sun in the wild then we as Keepers should provide it for them regardless of if they use it or not.
UVB is never a bad thing (unless it is too intense or they are nocturnal…)

The 'if they get it naturally they should have it in captivity' concept is completely flawed. So many aspects of the natural environment are outright harmful. Some of them are just completely obvious like parasites and predators etc, but there are also plenty of climatic variables which are outright harmful. Wild animals including reptiles die from even some of the most basic things like too much and too little heat, too much and too little water etc.

Wild animals cope with the environment which happens to exist. They try to deal with it. We as keepers can specifically design it to be as good as possible for them. We should not try to replicate nature, we should try to provide an ideal environment. Natural environments are absolutely not ideal. UV is an inherently dangerous thing and without doubt causes harm in many cases for captive reptiles, though most often it is just an expensive way to achieve nothing other than a waste of time and money.

To say UVB is never a bad thing is outright incorrect, and especially considering when providing UVB you'll generally be including other things with it, the statement is actually dangerous as well as incorrect.

 

[Sugar]

The 'if they get it naturally they should have it in captivity' concept is completely flawed. So many aspects of the natural environment are outright harmful. Some of them are just completely obvious like parasites and predators etc, but there are also plenty of climatic variables which are outright harmful. Wild animals including reptiles die from even some of the most basic things like too much and too little heat, too much and too little water etc.

Wild animals cope with the environment which happens to exist. They try to deal with it. We as keepers can specifically design it to be as good as possible for them. We should not try to replicate nature, we should try to provide an ideal environment. Natural environments are absolutely not ideal. UV is an inherently dangerous thing and without doubt causes harm in many cases for captive reptiles, though most often it is just an expensive way to achieve nothing other than a waste of time and money.

To say UVB is never a bad thing is outright incorrect, and especially considering when providing UVB you'll generally be including other things with it, the statement is actually dangerous as well as incorrect.

Well that’s your opinion, you’re entitled to it.
Not sure as to what ‘other things’ that will be added that you are referring to?

 

[user 43767]

To Sugar:
Hi, I`ve asked Sdajl a number of times if he would show a few pics or videos of all the many generations of varanids he`s produced, I`m still waiting for one single example??
If I remember correctly, the last time I linked to the studies above he said he wasn`t interested in reading them. In the past he claimed he experimented with supplements and deliberately overdosed them, then stated they had no detrimental effect (that would be contrary to the manufacturers advise)?
He repeatedly advises newcomers to stick with supplementation, ,and states that they are more beneficial? Idiotic.
I call BS on his claims in those regards ...
Maybe if you ask him for examples (photos/videos) and details of the tests he had done on his "perfectly healthy and long lived monitors" you`ll have better luck than me (fingers, toes, eyes and ears crossed)..
UVB has benefits other than helping them maintain blood serum levels, whether in the wild or in captivity.

 

[Sdaji]

To Sugar:
Hi, I`ve asked Sdajl a number of times if he would show a few pics or videos of all the many generations of varanids he`s produced, I`m still waiting for one single example??
If I remember correctly, the last time I linked to the studies above he said he wasn`t interested in reading them. In the past he claimed he experimented with supplements and deliberately overdosed them, then stated they had no detrimental effect (that would be contrary to the manufacturers advise)?
He repeatedly advises newcomers to stick with supplementation, ,and states that they are more beneficial? Idiotic.
I call BS on his claims in those regards ...
Maybe if you ask him for examples (photos/videos) and details of the tests he had done on his "perfectly healthy and long lived monitors" you`ll have better luck than me (fingers, toes, eyes and ears crossed)..
UVB has benefits other than helping them maintain blood serum levels, whether in the wild or in captivity.

I've happily published articles, pictures included, in magazines etc on breeding small monitors, you can still find my articles in back issues if you want to read them, I'm more than happy to put detailed information out there for good people to enjoy, it's not like any of it is secret or not already out there, but I hardly take demands from the likes of you, so don't expect your requests of me to do anything to ever result in anything.

I never said I was disinterested in reading studies, or anything remotely like that. You're not just taking me out of context there, you're outright lying. I am a qualified biologist, I've read more than my share of scientific articles, I find them very interesting, and it seems I know how to interpret them better than you do.

Sure, I've done things contrary to advice countless times. It's a stupid world full of crap advice. If you blindly follow everything you're told, you'll inevitably believe a lot of falsehood. You're a pretty dull person if you've never personally experimented and only blindly followed the advice of others. You can not be a pioneer or learn anything new by following instructions, and your attitude there speaks volumes.

Use UV if you want. It has some benefits to some species sometimes, causes some harms to most species sometimes, if you do it carefully enough you won't cause harm and might even provide some benefits. I've never said otherwise. I'm hardly the only person who has bred large numbers of monitors with no UV and no health issues. Literally most of the big breeders of monitors don't use any UV. I started breeding small monitors when in Australia it was considered virtually impossible to do so. I just copied what the Americans were doing and immediately had great success. Initially the only difference between what I did and what I saw the Americans doing was that I used UV, but after experimenting and finding zero difference between using it and not using it, I stopped using it on most of them after a few years.

 

[user 43767]

Sdajl: Your reply to another member.

Some harsh words here!
You can argue about cage size, but I've seen plenty of monitors kept in tiny cages and it certainly doesn't cause them to suddenly die! (No, I'm not advocating small cages, monitors are something I've always used large enclosures for and they definitely enjoy/benefit from as much space as possible, unlike snakes).
I've kept multiple generations of monitors with zero UV, never had a hint of MBD, and I've used various doses of supplements including heavily dosing literally every single feed with calcium, D3 and multivitamin and mineral supplements from hatching to several years of age (this is decades ago now, there was no information available at the time, flame me if you want but I don't much care). I failed to cause any identifiable problems even while experimenting in the dark and using extreme doses, so I'm a bit sceptical that calcium or D3 supplements are particularly dangerous. [ENQUOTE]

I will search through to find the numerous times you`ve told membners UVB is of no benefit, supplements are the way to go.

 

[kankryb]

I have bred for the last 45 years and still breed loads of bluetongue skinks overhere and have never used UV lights, I also breed pinktongues and what you call exotics and don't use UV for anything

 

[user 43767]

• • 
    
  • 
    

  • I have bred for the last 45 years and still breed loads of bluetongue skinks overhere and have never used UV lights, I also breed pinktongues and what you call exotics and don't use UV for anything

    Hi. when you say you have bred Blue tongue and P:ink tongued skinks, can you explain how you did that, considering they are live bearers (do you artificially inseminate the females, or use other methods)? I would say the lizards breed themselves!
  • Are you suggesting that exposure to UVB whether unfiltered sunlight or artificial, is of no benmefit to these species?
  • The links I provided are specifically in relation to varanids and agamids.
  • Being very familar with these animals both in the wild and in captivity, I know for a fact they bask very regularly in sunlight. obviously that`s partly due to thermoregulating, but surely the UVB also helps with blood serum levels and has benefits other than that?

 

[Bluetongue1]

I have bred for the last 45 years and still breed loads of bluetongue skinks overhere and have never used UV lights, I also breed pinktongues and what you call exotics and don't use UV for anything

murrindindi, on the basis of what you have said here one can pretty much say all species of lizards kept in captivity as pets ‘breed themselves’. Everyday pet keepers do not resort to things such as “artificially inseminate the females, or use other methods”. So what is your point?

The basic statement that you were criticizing was: “I have bred” (kankryb). This simply says that the species named produced viable offspring whilst in the care of the keeper. However, there was significantly more to this statement that you chose to ignore. kankryb stated: “for the last 45 years…” In order to achieve breeding success for such an extended period, the keeper must have provided the conditions in captivity needed for breeding on a regular and on-going basis – something you conveniently chose to ignore. This would require appropriate knowledge of a multitude of factors involved in establishing a suitable keeping environment. Factors such as temperature range, humidity level, substrate and cleaning regime, providing privacy, hides, and other furnishings, diet, water and feeding regime, pair matching and temperature cycling, correct conditioning for viable egg and sperm production etc.

If seeking to reduce the voracity of another poster’s statement, with whom you disagree, you really do need to address in full what that poster has said.

 

[kankryb]

Thanks Bluetongue 1,
yes I keep animals that breed and only provide good food and conditions, I keep 4 different species of bluetongues, that breeds, the oldest female at the moment is a 15 year old northern female that produced 12 litters in those years, litter sizes from 9 to 17, again no UV ever but a good variation in food and a good vitamin supplement

 

[user 43767]

murrindindi, on the basis of what you have said here one can pretty much say all species of lizards kept in captivity as pets ‘breed themselves’. Everyday pet keepers do not resort to things such as “artificially inseminate the females, or use other methods”. So what is your point?

The basic statement that you were criticizing was: “I have bred” (kankryb). This simply says that the species named produced viable offspring whilst in the care of the keeper. However, there was significantly more to this statement that you chose to ignore. kankryb stated: “for the last 45 years…” In order to achieve breeding success for such an extended period, the keeper must have provided the conditions in captivity needed for breeding on a regular and on-going basis – something you conveniently chose to ignore. This would require appropriate knowledge of a multitude of factors involved in establishing a suitable keeping environment. Factors such as temperature range, humidity level, substrate and cleaning regime, providing privacy, hides, and other furnishings, diet, water and feeding regime, pair matching and temperature cycling, correct conditioning for viable egg and sperm production etc.

If seeking to reduce the voracity of another poster’s statement, with whom you disagree, you really do need to address in full what that poster has said.

My "basic statement" is that "we" don`t actually breed these animals, they do it themselves. I suggest you stop trying to tell me what I mean in my responses rather how you interpret them. I also pointed out that the links and the thread concern varanids, I added the other concerning agamids to show other members that in those cases supplementary D3 is of zero benefit.
I suggest kankryb starts to offer UVB to at least some of his skinks in an effort to see if it adds to their wellbeing in some way (unless it`s inconvenient or not worth the expense, which would never do).
They are diuranl basking animals, he claims he fully supports them, but deprives them of something that is likely to benefit them.
Can you now show myself and everyone else the evisdence you have gathered that indicates UVB exposure would be of no benefit to his skinks, also photos /videos of your own monitors and details of how you keep them?
Note that it obviously needs to be used safely, whether real or artificial.

Thanks Bluetongue 1,
yes I keep animals that breed and only provide good food and conditions, I keep 4 different species of bluetongues, that breeds, the oldest female at the moment is a 15 year old northern female that produced 12 litters in those years, litter sizes from 9 to 17, again no UV ever but a good variation in food and a good vitamin supplement

The fact you`ve never offered UVB in the 45 years of keeping a variety of diurnal basking lizards may indicate you need to update your husbandry in some respects?
I repeat, the links I posted concern varanids and agamids where the evidence certain supplements are of ZERO benefit is now clear..