What should be done with sibs?

[longqi]

And anyone who does breed them and then kills off some perfectly healthy babies should be named and shamed. There is no justification for killing healthy babies for no reason. I don't care whether some may be sold as pure later on.

That is exactly where you are wrong
If every hybrid sibling was culled there could never be any problem

You really do need to care about hybrid siblings being sold as pure
Breeder breeds hybrid sibling and sells it as hyrid sibling
Buyer gets bored sells snake
new buyer sells snake
By this time no record exists that it was a hybrid sibling
In fact all legal papers state it is pure
New buyer breeds it
All hatchies are sold as pure

Exactly that scenario is happening now and will happen more in the future
Can the last breeder be blamed?
Absolutely not because his paperwork and the visual look of the snake may both indicate pure

So this is a very tricky subject to discus openly

IMO any breeders who cull hybrid siblings should be congratulated for making a hard descision
IMO putting yourself in the position of having to make that descision is a whole new thread

 

[reptinate]

That is exactly where you are wrong
If every hybrid sibling was culled there could never be any problem

You really do need to care about hybrid siblings being sold as pure
Breeder breeds hybrid sibling and sells it as hyrid sibling
Buyer gets bored sells snake
new buyer sells snake
By this time no record exists that it was a hybrid sibling
In fact all legal papers state it is pure
New buyer breeds it
All hatchies are sold as pure

Exactly that scenario is happening now and will happen more in the future
Can the last breeder be blamed?
Absolutely not because his paperwork and the visual look of the snake may both indicate pure

So this is a very tricky subject to discus openly

IMO any breeders who cull hybrid siblings should be congratulated for making a hard descision
IMO putting yourself in the position of having to make that descision is a whole new thread

Well yes, if they were all killed then there wouldn't be a problem with hybrids being sold as pure. But what about the problem that thousands of healthy snakes will be killed? Why is this acceptable? All because someone wants to breed the next best thing.

I absolutely care about hybrids being sold as pure. I just think there has to be a better way to deal with it that doesn't involve killing them. If no way can be found then they shouldn't be bred and we shouldn't accept it. Can't a system be set up like with purebred dogs? May take more time and effort but surely it's better.

In my opinion they should not be congratulated for doing such a thing. A breeder who may be thinking of breeding them, but then realises that it's just not right if killing healthy snakes is a part of it, should be congratulated. Someone who goes ahead and breeds them, knowing that killing off some of the babies will happen, and still chooses to do it, should be shamed. For some who do it it may be hard, but the situation is completely avoidable. Don't breed them. I think some others wouldn't really have a problem doing it.

It makes me a little ashamed to be a part of the reptile community if this sort of thing is happening

 

[Justdragons]

There is a name and shame if you get sold a dodgy animal or service. its buyer feedback. But not to be abused.

I dont understand at the start what made someone think that they could cross out the jag gene. at the start it was in pure coastals if im not mistaken.

Ingie- im somewhat on the same page. prevention is the best cure and its about time the lic board put a stop to cross breeding and all grey zones, there is not point in senseless killing. But i guess for some folk there is better money in the fancy morphs(for some thats all that matters). Im some what of a hypocrite because i own and love my albino but id say its a natural form of any living species and what you see is what you get.

As long as there are purists out there there will always be pure forms of species and one day they will be worth their weight in gold, keep fighting the good fight guys cause i know im going to.

Toby

 

[longqi]

Well yes, if they were all killed then there wouldn't be a problem with hybrids being sold as pure. But what about the problem that thousands of healthy snakes will be killed? Why is this acceptable? All because someone wants to breed the next best thing.

In my opinion they should not be congratulated for doing such a thing. A breeder who may be thinking of breeding them, but then realises that it's just not right if killing healthy snakes is a part of it, should be congratulated. Someone who goes ahead and breeds them, knowing that killing off some of the babies will happen, and still chooses to do it, should be shamed.

It makes me a little ashamed to be a part of the reptile community if this sort of thing is happening

Now we are getting into the nitty griity bit

Paint jobs are here and will keep on being bred
Nothing can stop that now

So what is the best thing to do with unwanted hybrid siblings??
Only practical answer is to cull them to help prevent the mess they have over seas with even attempting to identify snakes

If they cannot bring yourself to cull them,,,, dont breed them
If they can cull them I may despise them for putting themselves in that position
BUT I would also thank them for not messing up the gene pool any more than they have done already

That then raises the second point I made
If a breeder does love snakes, how can they put themselves into a position where killing unwanted hybrid siblings is the best thing to do???

Snowman
2 years ago did a visa run to Perth
Played with boas kings gtps jags diamonds albinos and jungles at a few different places
So although its not as open there WA will face the same problem sooner rather than later

 

[champagne]

I am also very worried about the prospect of a trial and error newbie breeder that crosses some non sellable snakes but does not have the heart to freeze them. So he lets them go in the state forest down the road so they can muddy the wild populations of snakes. (hell, they are doing it with corns)!

Its sick enough to muddy the hobby with non trueful sellers, but to screw up the wild populations genetics just really annoys me!!!

can I just say please no one just put a sib in the freezer, it would be a very slow painful death. If they are to be culled it should be done humanly

- - - Updated - - -

Well yes, if they were all killed then there wouldn't be a problem with hybrids being sold as pure. But what about the problem that thousands of healthy snakes will be killed? Why is this acceptable? All because someone wants to breed the next best thing.

it isn't acceptable but that is another thread people will breed crosses and the sibs are a problem. so how do we deal with them? not to breed crosses would be great but its not going to happen

- - - Updated - - -

Now we are getting into the nitty griity bit

Paint jobs are here and will keep on being bred
Nothing can stop that now

So what is the best thing to do with unwanted hybrid siblings??
Only practical answer is to cull them to help prevent the mess they have over seas with even attempting to identify snakes

If they cannot bring yourself to cull them,,,, dont breed them
If they can cull them I may despise them for putting themselves in that position
BUT I would also thank them for not messing up the gene pool any more than they have done already

That then raises the second point I made
If a breeder does love snakes, how can they put themselves into a position where killing unwanted hybrid siblings is the best thing to do???

Snowman
2 years ago did a visa run to Perth
Played with boas kings gtps jags diamonds albinos and jungles at a few different places
So although its not as open there WA will face the same problem sooner rather than later

this post is exactly what this thread is about.... not ''just don't breed hybrids'' it would be great but not going to happen

 

[Rogue5861]

I believe that all sibs should be culled, but who is going to check up all all breeders to make sure that these so call 'sibs have been culled? As said it isnt hard to pass most sibs off as pure, any breeder could just say that were pure pair of coastals produce these offspring and that they were no cross bred to another in there collection. Why would a breeder kill of 75% of a clutch just to satisfy the masses when they can still sell them and make money?

A pedigree system is going to cost the people breeding/buying pures and not the jag owners, how is this fair for purists? We all know prices of legit locale's are sell for more then any sib or any unknown locale animal, these prices will only increase more and start to outprice jags and the likes. Ive seen some species of carpets going for between $100-$200, prices of known locals going for atleast double.

Those that are keeping known locale and pure species just need to keep it up, not only will you still have beautiful animals but it will adventually pay off for you. I dont doubt the prices will increase as it becomes harder and harder to get a pure animal.

There is always going to be people new to the hobby buying there first snakes cheapy, these will most likely become the market for sibs but they are definately not going away.


Rick

 

[ronhalling]

If not culling is there any other way these sibs can have a permanent identification attatched ie scale clipping or tail tip clipping or some sort of tagging system so that in future these sibs cannot be passed off as pure's and the breeders looking for that next best thing could still sell the sibs to recoup some money without the stigma that culling is going to come with, just having a brain fart and throwing some possable alternatives out there. .......................................Ron

 

[Darlyn]

What a sad discussion, let's breed animals then kill the ones that are unappealing.......pffft.

 

[longqi]

What a sad discussion, let's breed animals then kill the ones that are unappealing.......pffft.

Exactly right Lynn
This is a VERY sad discussion
But it is something that needs to be discussed openly

IF there is another way other than culling that may work I would support that
But so far no other workable solution has been proposed

Only other one that may have worked is legally registering the siblings as hybrids
But no government agency is going to allow the legal registration of an illegally bred reptile

Desexing all hybrid siblings might work in theory but because the cost of desexing is more that sale value of
any hybrid sibling could not work in practice


If a thread like this makes a potential hybrid breeder think more clearly about the future it was worth it

 

[cement]

But it is something that needs to be discussed openly

Pretty one sided discussion.
Wonder why no jag or hybrid breeders are here, discussing their methods?

 

[Stevo2]

Pretty one sided discussion.
Wonder why no jag or hybrid breeders are here, discussing their methods?

Must be too busy off concocting their next monstrosity...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[yellowbeard]

The NSW Native Animal Keepers Species List provides a list of possible hybrids ("sibs"). Therefore any "sibs" (hybrids) created must be recorded as such and sold as such, if a breeder chooses not to they could lose their licence.
Below are a few hybrids from that list:
Antaresia childreni x Antaresia maculosa
Antaresia childreni x Antaresia stimsons
Morelia spilota cheynei x Morelia spilota variegate
Morelia spilota mcdowelli x Morelia bredliPogona barbata x Pogona vitticeps
Tiliqua scincoides x Tiliqua nigrolutea









- - - Updated - - -

I found this on the Murdoch University web site, interesting.

Warren, K. (2012) Reptile euthanasia: No easy solution? In: ANZCCART Conference 2012 - Thinking Outside the Cage: A different point of view, 24 - 26 July, Perth, Western Australia.

[h=2]Abstract[/h]Reptiles are commonly the subjects of biological or ecological research projects, and veterinarians or wildlife researchers may be required to euthanase a reptile if it sustains a severe injury associated with the research. When conducting euthanasia of any animal it is critical to confirm death. Whilst in mammals and birds euthanasia and confirmation of death can easily be accomplished, in reptiles these are not straightforward processes due to reptilian poikilothermic biology and physiology. Many traditional methods of reptile euthanasia are controversial and recommended methods of acceptable euthanasia vary amongst the different reptilian orders. Physical methods of euthanasia involving hypothermia or decapitation alone are considered inhumane and are not acceptable methods of euthanasia. Injectable pentobarbitone sodiuln is considered an acceptable method of euthanasia for all reptiles, except large crocodiles and other large reptile species where carcass removal in the wild may be problematic e.g. sea turtles. However, pentobarbitone sodium is a Scheduled 4 drug with requirements for storage in a locked environment and users other than registered veterinarians must apply for authorisation to administer scheduled drugs. Stunning and destruction of the brain is considered acceptable with reservations in some species of snakes and lizards. Humane euthanasia in reptiles is not easily accomplished and, whilst recognising limitations in accessing veterinary anaesthetic and euthanasia drugs, it can best be assured by using a two-stage euthanasia process - whereby the reptile is initially anaesthetised, and then euthanased by administration of pentobarbitone sodium or decapitation and brain destruction following anaesthesia.

 

[cement]

There is other problems involved with this too that aren't listed here, but need to be considered when euthing wild reptiles.

As far as captive bred goes though, that is completely up to the breeders indiscretion, and no-one really knows what goes on there, except the individuals involved. Its talked about within the circles, but even if captive bred animals were euthed humanely, it is still a practice that isn't condoned by the general majority.
Some don't blink an eye, and thats not hard to understand if you come from the bush, where everyday, life and death go hand in hand.
For city and suburban reptile hobbyists,especially newbies, its difficult and confronting.
At the end of the day its the newbies who cop the brunt of anything crappy in the hobby. Not knowing what is what....caught up in the exitement of owning herps....loss of hard earned cash thinking your buying something when its something else...not knowing about the bigger picture and how simple, seemingly insignificant things, like hybridising actually affect them or others.

 

[Saphira]

I retract my original post, upon further research into the issue at hand, I believe herps should be kept 'pure'. Cross breeding or morphing any animal has plenty of physical and moral issues, 'boring' or 'mongrel' sibs being just one of them. Although I am sure the practice of cross breeding will never be fully eradicated, what about a 'x-breeders license' which breeders need to get, but must show aptitude and knowledge of breeding responsibly before being granted said license???
Just my 2 cents worth lol.

 

[hulloosenator]

Pretty one sided discussion.
Wonder why no jag or hybrid breeders are here, discussing their methods?

Exactly........well said Cement.

All you hybrid haters had better get used to it , because they will be the thing of the future.
nobody is going to want to see the same old .....same old.... purebred perfect looking BHP or same old Bearded Dragon just like the one on the side of the road...because they have seen it all before....BORING.....!
Hybrids create interest and those breeding them dont get on here because they hear the same old thing time and time again......BORING....!

So....if you have all these Jags and whatever crossbreeds that you dont want , then give them to me and they will live out their lives in peace without you hanging over them with hate and anguish on how will you kill it.......geeeez....!

 

[Newhere]

Some people paint their nails because they think they are boring lol I like mine just the way nature made em

Also please don't include me in your statistics, I am somebody and when you say nobody wants to see the same old snakes you are including me. Speak for yourself.

 

[Saphira]

Also please don't include me in your statistics, I am somebody and when you say nobody wants to see the same old snakes you are including me. Speak for yourself.[/QUOTE]

Or me. I love my antaresia pure and healthy. What makes us think we can do better than nature has done for thousands of years? ??

 

[longqi]

Exactly........well said Cement.

All you hybrid haters had better get used to it , because they will be the thing of the future.
nobody is going to want to see the same old .....same old.... purebred perfect looking BHP or same old Bearded Dragon just like the one on the side of the road...because they have seen it all before....BORING.....!
Hybrids create interest and those breeding them dont get on here because they hear the same old thing time and time again......BORING....!

So....if you have all these Jags and whatever crossbreeds that you dont want , then give them to me and they will live out their lives in peace without you hanging over them with hate and anguish on how will you kill it.......geeeez....!

I really dont think its a question of 'hating hybrids'
Paint jobs are now part of the system
Nothing can stop that
Some of them are pretty cool

This debate arose from the question about 'unwanted hybrid siblings'
They are definitely a potential cause for concern

What exactly do the hybrid breeders do with these now??

Example
You say please give them to me and you will care for them?
How many hybrid siblings will there be in Aus this year?
Maybe 1000? 100pairs bred x10sibling per batch would seem a fair figure??
Extrapolate that without increasing numbers and by the first one you adopt dies you will have 25.000 hybrid siblings under your care??
So regardless of your selfless offer I dont think you can manage this by yourself???

Nobody can stop hybrid breeding
At this time nobody can control the hybrid sibling sale/gift problem

Simple question
How are the hybrid breeders going to do it?????

 

[champagne]

Exactly........well said Cement.

All you hybrid haters had better get used to it , because they will be the thing of the future.
nobody is going to want to see the same old .....same old.... purebred perfect looking BHP or same old Bearded Dragon just like the one on the side of the road...because they have seen it all before....BORING.....!
Hybrids create interest and those breeding them dont get on here because they hear the same old thing time and time again......BORING....!

So....if you have all these Jags and whatever crossbreeds that you dont want , then give them to me and they will live out their lives in peace without you hanging over them with hate and anguish on how will you kill it.......geeeez....!

there is no need to hybridise any reptile all the paint jobs can be achieved from breeding within the sub species or species. it just ignorance and trying to get to the final outcome quick that people crosses breed but this thread is not about that...

It is about what should be done with the sibs that these cross breeders are creating?

 

[TrueBlue]

hulloosenator,-

What a load of rubbish.
As much can be done with pure animals as can be done with mongrel crap. More infact if you know what you are doing.