Centralian Python Does Laps

[punkinhead]

Hi all, i have 2 centralian pythons of similar ages and builds in a 2 story tank. The large one was bought as a yearling and the smaller guy was a rescue from some teenagers who thought it was funny to see how many times they could get him to strike and make him jump through hoops for food.

They are both extremely placid and well behaved now, affectionate and good with kids and strangers.

The question i'd like to hear some speculation on, is that even though they share separate spaces in the same large tank, while the smaller snake (and my jungle python) is content to sit on a branch or a hot rock and move a couple times a day, the larger one seems to never stop moving.
Last year he'd start doing laps of his tank when i turned the lights out, throwing rocks, falling off branches, unplugging power plugs etc.
Nowadays he does it most of the day and the night time too.

He'll spend 4 or 5 hours exploring every nook, cranny and crevasse from the top to the bottom, finally resting when he tires.

My theories are several with attempted escape of course being top of the list, followed by hunting behaviour (doesn't seem like it and it happens while he's fermenting his last meal etc).

I tied swapping them in their tanks as the top tank has a mesh top that i thought may be encouraging him to seek the open, but all that happened is they both sooked for 2 months and wouldn't move.

I'd like to know if this is a common behaviour, if it is something that some snakes just do, and if there are any solid theories on what he's looking for?

Picture for interests sake and to thank you for reading so far.

 

[Carl12]

My bredli does the same thing and I often wonder why, personally I think she is just constantly hungry because she will hide for a day or two after having eaten then straight out to exploring her cage. I wouldn’t be too stressed just snakes doing snake things

 

[punkinhead]

Not so much stressed as thinking i may be able to do something to make it so he doesn't have to.


I did have a foam shelf suspended up near the lights that the snake seemed to prefer, but i took it out as the squeaking and thumping at night kept waking me up as he did night laps and fell off.

Just seems funny that two snakes, same breed, same enclosure (divided) and only one does it.

I don't run heat lights as they cost too much to replace, but he has an electric rock and a homebrew pad under the carpet next to the rock for 24hr heat as they all do.

Appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I think i have it figured. The talk of temps and heat rocks had me get the temp gun out this morning.
The large guys tank has a small heat rock and a homebrew mat next to it, while the other two tanks have a giant heat rock.

The small rock is off and on again by itself and was showing 26C this morning. The large rocks in the other tanks show 34-38C.

Ordered another giant Zoo Med rock this morning. I'll see if that modifies his behavior.

He has this (heat pad under carpet as well)



I've ordered another of these;



Bit further investigation, seems the small heat rock has stopped working. I replaced it with a giant from the JP's tank and put a spare small in with JP till the new giant one i ordered this morning comes.

All sorted and i'm glad i asked the question, even though i figured it out myself, having to ask prompted more thought so glad i joined up here.

Like everyone here i want what's best for my mates.

He's on his way to investigate;



There'll be peace in the valley tomorrow...

 

[Ccrystal]

Remove those heat rocks ASAP. They are very unreliable and easily malfunction - hence why not many snake keepers use them. Either use heat mats or basking lamps.

You could try adding substrate and see if he enjoys digging through that, I noticed that when my quarantine snakes no longer had paper towels, they would bury themselves and take long naps. You could also try adding more enriching things for him, like fake plants and skulls.

Some snakes are really picky, and if they feel too exposed they tend to glass-surf - which is what your guy is doing. Try adding more things for him to hide in and explore in, and hopefully that’ll help

 

[punkinhead]

Rocks will be staying. I'll just use the good ones only from now on. He used to have coco coir substrate, but they seem happy with the carpet and it's easier to maintain.

Skulls to enrich his life eh?

 

[Ccrystal]

Rocks will be staying. I'll just use the good ones only from now on. He used to have coco coir substrate, but they seem happy with the carpet and it's easier to maintain.

Skulls to enrich his life eh?

They absolutely love smelling new things, I just used skulls as an example because my snakes love them

 

[punkinhead]

They all get out of their enclosures most days. On the grass, in the trees, over the furniture.....

I have enclosures i've used in the past that ran mats and lights. I prefer the rocks.

But you are correct that one of the cheapies stopped working and i didn't know.

I now know some of the signs of that problem, and i know it's possible that it will happen so will have a program to monitor them all, probably each feeding time as that's when it is most important for them.

 

[Yeliena]

Hi, I have a male Murray Darling who does the same thing, so glad to hear about your boy! Unsure how old he is as he is also a rescue. He's healthy, feeds well and sheds well, has appropriate heat and stimulation both in the tank and out of the tank as I often open the door in the evening and he comes out to explore. Yet he is constantly on the go for most of the day and often at night....no idea why.
The olive python does it too but not for such extended periods of time.

 

[punkinhead]

Gorgeous snake mate. He's beautiful

 

[GBWhite]

Hi Punkinhead and Yeliena,

In the wild Carpets are sit and wait strategist and as a rule they don't actively hunt their food but rather after detecting the presence of a prospective meal they will take up an ambush position and wait for the opportunity to seize and ingest the prey. Following consumption they find a safe place to lay up while they digest the food item.

They have a low metabolic rate and because of this prefer to spend most of their time inactive either hiding or in a "sit and wait ambush position" to conserve energy

This practice carries over and is consistent behaviour with captive animals.

So, having viewed what I can see of their enclosures, I was just wondering if you provide the snakes with suitable hides? Because if not, this could be a reason that they are always on the move, whereby searching for a suitable and safe hide to hold up either to digest or ambush food or even just to rest up somewhere they feel safe.

Cheers,

George.

 

[Yeliena]

Hi George, thank you for your reply
Snoot lives in a wardrobe I converted. The right side of the top shelf is partitioned off as a hide, and he spends a lot of time coiled up in the wall hanger on the left side, so would that be enough?

 

[GBWhite]

Hi George, thank you for your reply
Snoot lives in a wardrobe I converted. The right side of the top shelf is partitioned off as a hide, and he spends a lot of time coiled up in the wall hanger on the left side, so would that be enough?

Hi again,

Should be as long as he's got a cold place to thermoregulate. Could be that his enclosure is too hot or even something else. Maybe if you could wack up a pic of the set up in the enclosure might help and shed a bit more light on the situation.

Cheers.

 

[Ben_Imbricata]

The quality of the heat rock isn’t the issue, they are unsafe for the animal and considering you have no thermostat on them there is now way of telling it is over heating. Heat rocks produce Infrared-C radiant heat, it doesn’t penetrate very far into animal tissue like basking does. This means that when a reptile lays on a heat rock, only their skin gets hot, and it’s up to their blood to carry the heat away from the skin and disperse it to the rest of the body. In other words, that heat gets concentrated in the part of the reptile that is in direct contact with the heat rock, and this effect is compounded when the heat rock is smaller than the reptile’s body. When the air is cold, a reptile’s metabolism is slow, which means that the heart is beating slowly and blood doesn’t move around the body very fast. This means that if a cold reptile lays on a heat rock, its blood may not be moving fast enough to carry heat away from the skin fast enough to prevent overheating and this is how burns happen.

Glass enclosures hold virtually no heat and shouldn’t be used as the heat just dissipates straight through the glass so it doesn’t hold a decent consistent temp and your ambient temp in that enclosure will be the same as your house where as a wooden enclosure will hold heat better.
Try adding a hide as you have no hide for it to go somewhere escape if it wants to, it makes them feel safe. It might be searching for a little spot to hide and relax

I would also consider putting that snake on a diet for the animals health and longevity of its life

I’m not even going to go into the lights you are using and having electrical plugs and power boards INSIDE the enclosure that shouldn’t be there for obvious reasons

 

[Herpetology]

I’m not even going to go into the lights you are using and having electrical plugs and power boards INSIDE the enclosure that shouldn’t be there for obvious reasons

i didnt even notice this!!! i hope its just the angle of picture edit: its not one of the plugs is falling out haha

Hi again,

Should be as long as he's got a cold place to thermoregulate. Could be that his enclosure is too hot or even something else. Maybe if you could wack up a pic of the set up in the enclosure might help and shed a bit more light on the situation.

Cheers.

a pic of his enclosure from https://www.aussiepythons.com/threads/my-custom-enclosures.229508/

 

[GBWhite]

a pic of his enclosure from https://www.aussiepythons.com/threads/my-custom-enclosures.229508/

Hi Herpetology,

Mate, I think you'll find that's a pic of Punkinhead's enclosure. I was asking Yeliena for a pic of their snake's enclose who said it was a converted wardrobe not all glass as in this pic.

Cheers,

George.

 

[Mack86]

The quality of the heat rock isn’t the issue, they are unsafe for the animal and considering you have no thermostat on them there is now way of telling it is over heating. Heat rocks produce Infrared-C radiant heat, it doesn’t penetrate very far into animal tissue like basking does. This means that when a reptile lays on a heat rock, only their skin gets hot, and it’s up to their blood to carry the heat away from the skin and disperse it to the rest of the body. In other words, that heat gets concentrated in the part of the reptile that is in direct contact with the heat rock, and this effect is compounded when the heat rock is smaller than the reptile’s body. When the air is cold, a reptile’s metabolism is slow, which means that the heart is beating slowly and blood doesn’t move around the body very fast. This means that if a cold reptile lays on a heat rock, its blood may not be moving fast enough to carry heat away from the skin fast enough to prevent overheating and this is how burns happen.

Glass enclosures hold virtually no heat and shouldn’t be used as the heat just dissipates straight through the glass so it doesn’t hold a decent consistent temp and your ambient temp in that enclosure will be the same as your house where as a wooden enclosure will hold heat better.
Try adding a hide as you have no hide for it to go somewhere escape if it wants to, it makes them feel safe. It might be searching for a little spot to hide and relax

I would also consider putting that snake on a diet for the animals health and longevity of its life

I’m not even going to go into the lights you are using and having electrical plugs and power boards INSIDE the enclosure that shouldn’t be there for obvious reasons

Sorry to jump onto this thread but I have a question. I use a heat mat and to my knowledge they are also infa red c radiant heat, so naturally with your explanation about how it does not absorb into the animals skin very well it has me wondering....
I have a Stimson's python, should he be "basking" as you say using a light rather than a mat? If I haven't understood this correctly please let me know.

Once again sorry to jump on here but I'm curious and wanting to learn

 

[Ben_Imbricata]

I was just pointing out how bad heat rocks are, never use them unless you want to cook your snake.
Heat mats are basically the same but your using it in a different way. In your case that’s the best way to have a young snake set up with a ‘click clack’ tub and heat mat under 1/3 of it, it gives the snake a warm spot and helps with ambient temps and a thermal gradient being a small enclosure. As snakes get older you achieve the same thing by a bigger enclosure and basking lights ect to heat the area.

At the end of the day you just need to achieve and provide a suitable basking area and temperature gradient that meets the requirements of the species you are keeping.
It is really hard to do that in a glass enclosure

 

[punkinhead]

Right, so a rock gives unsuitable heat, but a mat gives unsuitable heat that is suitable. Same heat but better in your mind.

Glass is unsuitable, doesn't matter that your ambient is the same as the snakes range. Also doesn't matter if it's 8mm toughened glass like mine or the 1mm crap that pet shop tanks are made from. There is no insulation factor in your world.

Doesn't matter that one snake the same does not exhibit the behaviour and one does, in the same enclosure.

Same answer is suitable for everyone, no matter where they live or the dimensions of their materials.

Usually it's 'Get a whole new enclosure' is the advice here.

 

[Ben_Imbricata]

Well I was trying to giving you advice on your current set up and why each item could be a contributing factor to your snakes behaviour.
I could have just easily said ‘go buy a new set up’

As I said when heat mats are used in a different application like for a small hatchie set up they are perfect because your using it different, at the end of the day if you use it in an enclosure like a heat rock it’s doing the same thing but giving the snake more surface area to bask apposed to a rock

You can say the ambient temps are the same but I would suggest that the weather where a Centralian Python is from like Alice Springs is abit different to the East Coast where you are from even though the temps might be the same from time to time

As for the glass , In general, thicker windows reduce heat loss only slightly. Compared to a (2.79mm) clear glass window, a (16.25mm) increase in thickness yields a 0.08% reduction in heat loss. In comparison so your thicker glass isn’t doing as much as you think

 

[Sdaji]

Pumpkin, it's really great that you're enthusiastic about snakes, but the reality is that your caging has many problems, some of which are minor, some are more significant, and some are outright dangerous, such as the electrical setup. One of your enclosures in another thread is very likely to either injure your snake or allow it to escape.

Glass is bad for multiple reasons. It is more hydrophylic than plastic or wood which can lead to less stable humidity (too high or too low) or with condensation damp spots. Some snakes will be comfortable in open spaces with full visibility like you're using, but most will have at least some amount of increased stress, and some individuals will just outright stress out and become ill or eventually die without adequate privacy - this is snake housing 101.

The physics of the thermal issues with glass have already been addressed by others, but it's also important to understand the nature of the thermal dynamics snakes naturally have access to, and what we need to give them. Snakes don't just exist at the ambient temperature. Right now I'm in the Pilbara, it's 6.30PM local time. I can easily go outside and walk to the rocky area where local snakes are living and find temperatures between about 40 degrees such as west-facing rocks, and 20 degrees such as shady south-east-facing areas or underneath rocks, so what is the temperature here? That's just the temperatures right at this moment. Within the last or next 24 hours I can find basking spots of around 60 degrees and there is always the option for a snake to stay around 20 degrees if it wants to. I'm just using this as the example of where I am right now (it happens to be a similar climate to what bredli naturally live in). Most thermal environments are similarly dynamic. So, you have all that variation which a snake can choose from, but if you're using a glass box with top ventilation, you're forcing the snake to accept whatever temperature you happen to be giving it. You might get lucky and get away with it, but even if you do, it's not ideal, and you certainly are increasing the chances of running into problems.

As for hot rocks, there's a reason everyone says they're terrible. Those of us who have been around for a long time have seen plenty of examples of snakes being burned by them or unable to properly thermoregulate and ending up sick or dead. Heat mats are better because they result in a larger, flat surface the snake can comfortably utilise with a lot of surface area. To use a hot rock the snake needs to sit uncomfortably with uneven heat, meaning before it is at the desired temperature it can burn itself, which is something we do see all too often. Sure, it's not going to be as much of an issue in a climate like you have in Coffs Harbour... until you have that particularly cold day when the snake really wants to be warm...

Sometimes it's a bit difficult to be polite and tactful when someone is clearly demonstrating they have a lack of knowledge and experience but act like they're an expert and even suggest others can learn from them, but if you can't tell the difference between a colubrid and an elapid and you suggest using glass enclosures with internal electronics as you have displayed here and you tell people it's safe to offer snakes a feed as large as you like, etc etc etc, it's really better for you to be learning rather than trying to teach others. Some of your misinformation is just wrong, but some of it is outright dangerous.

You're arguing with some people here who do genuinely know their stuff, and it's just plain silly.