Female woma is about to drop a clutch ;)

[benjamind2010]

I have a feeling that these eggs just weren't meant to be. I do remember that when I went to collect her eggs, they were all pushed to the sides of her nest box, with her in the middle. I remember reading information written by a prominent herper that this is definitely not a good sign.

However, I figured they looked healthy, so I'm only guessing.

This afternoon when doing my once-every-2-days 30 second spot check I noticed some mold on a couple of the eggs. It wasn't much, but it was enough to worry me, so I dusted some Tinea powder on all of them just as a precaution. The funny thing is that they look dimpled...already...which again, is not a good sign this early in the piece.

So I guess time will tell, but I think that clutch might have had something wrong with it, well, maybe half the eggs were no good, so I'll just wait and see what comes of it. Fingers crossed. It looks like it'll be Russian Roulette. I put it on all on the red and hope that it when it stops spinning it's on the red.

I'd give it a 50/50 chance from here on in.

Anyway, just a heads up. Feeling a bit dejected about a possible bad clutch...but otherwise I'm doing fine.

 

[Beans]

Normally when a snake pushes an egg out its a slug. Perhaps they're all slugs : /

 

[benjamind2010]

The funny thing is they're white and pretty healthy looking slugs, if they are indeed slugs

Aside from the slight indentations and that bit of mold on a couple of them, they all look reasonably healthy. But the appearance of mold has me wondering if those eggs were bad from the start.
Perhaps they were. Only time will tell how they turn out. I've heard of people experiencing mold on eggs even in the early stages and still ending up with a healthy hatchling, so I will most certainly not give up on them. I will just wait and see how they turn out. If they go bad, well, so be it.

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I'm incubating them using the over-water method, but instead of using just water, it's perlite that has been mixed with some water. Because the heat cord is on the bottom of the incubator, this should ensure that enough humidity is maintained to keep the eggs in the right condition.

 

[creaturesofhabit]

@ beans snakes do lay infertile eggs that look exactly the same as normal( fertile eggs) and will also lay slugs. ..I'm not trying to be rude and singling you out but just interested to know what species you breed?

 

[Beans]

I don't breed and never have bred snakes.

Just info from various books, youtube etc. Animals all over the animal kingdom do it. If theres a retarded bird chick, the mum chucks it out of the nest. Lions do it, dogs do it etc.

And snakes do it too. If the snake knows its not fertile she will kick it out of the nest because she doesn't want to waste energy trying to incubate it.

I know you aren't trying to be rude or anything its okay xD. Just saying that it's possibly why she pushed most of them away, however if it is her first time laying maybe she doesn't know what shes doing.

Incubate them anyway and after a few weeks shine a flashlight on them and see if you can see any veins etc through the shell.

 

[benjamind2010]

Well things are a bit strange. After she laid her eggs and I moved them to the incubator she was quite restless. Ok this is normal.

After I cleaned her tub out and scented the tub with a mild nontoxic perfume to remove the egg smell she calmed down and then ate one quail on Monday then ate another quail on Wednesday. Ok that seems normal.

Thursday after work I visited a relatives and stayed for the night. On Friday morning when I came home I noticed she was very restless, at times seemingly even desperate. Pacing like crazy and even nearly tipping over her hide box.
I cleaned out her tub, gave her a good rub down with warm soapy water to get rid of any egg smell that may have been there and then put more perfume in her tub to "re-scent" it so that she thinks there are no eggs.

But this time I think it has failed. She is still restless. It's almost like she just doesn't want to give up. I also noted that she would intermittently "wheeze" that I really think is just a very strong and angry hissing sound because I examined her mouth and there is nothing wrong and her tongue is fine and works perfectly.

Is there anything I'm doing wrong? She ate 2 quails so I know she does not have a respiratory problem otherwise she would not have eaten those quails.

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[benjamind2010]

And she was making those funny hissing/wheezing noises the day after I removed her eggs - and she ate 2 meals since then...but now she's gone back to that strange behavior. I find it hard to undrrstand what could have gone wrong. Her temps are fine...she has clean water...I'm doing all I can do.

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[Beans]

I have absolutely no clue. I hope someone sees soon and can help you maybe she's being maternal? Even though a lot of snakes aren't I dunno

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[Chris1]

Maybe she doesn't like the perfume?

Obviously removing the egg smell (washing her and cleaning her tub) is important, but Ive never heard of 're-scenting with perfume'

 

[Beans]

Yeah that could do it. Maybe try vinegar and water solution instead?

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[benjamind2010]

The good news is that 2 or 3 of her eggs look perfect, the not so good news is that the rest have marked depressions in them. The picture I took will show you more clearly what I mean.

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[Beans]

Eh. Keep em cooking. See how it goes.

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[benjamind2010]

She's still carrying on. Hasn't settled down as of yet. Still making those stressed hissing noises. From observation I see no signs of any RI, so for the moment I'm ruling that out.
I am unsure of where to go from here. If she doesn't improve within a few days I will be getting someone to look at her, as it could really be something a lot more serious. There is this psychological phenomenon where someone thinks that it's not nearly as bad as it really is, the term for it is normalcy bias.

Maybe such bias is getting the better of me and lulling me into a false sense of hope. I sure as hell am not going to lose a prized snake who just laid a clutch of eggs to normalcy bias.

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She'll be visiting the vets soon. The stressed hissing noises, although it was apparent she didn't have any signs of a RI when I examined her mouth (RI usually has telltale signs of inflamed mouth and lots of mucous with the tongue not being able to fork, etc), she still makes funny breathing noises intermittently. So I'll lean on the side of precaution and get her examined by a professional. I really don't want anything to happen to her, she's a prized woma and she just put down a clutch that I really want to hatch so that her line can be carried through with the really nice male that I bred her with. She has wider bands, and the male has thinner bands. Both have beautiful deep and rich colors...but losing ANY animal would be heartbreaking.

My male 6yo blonde spotted isn't terribly interested in the quail I offered him, I dunno what's wrong with him. He hasn't touch anything since I got him in April. I know he was probably being cooled down around the time I got him, I think most mature adult males around that time would be cooled if the keeper things they'll be used for breeding purposes.

I gave the quail to her, and guess what? She's smashing it. So, at least she's eating...but that doesn't mean she isn't sick. So a vet visit is still going to happen...Hell, I might get the vet to take a look at the blonde spotted as well while we're at it, give his mouth a good looking at, as a prophylactic measure just in case...because you'd think he would be eating by now, it's like a few days next to November. The temps are OK, nothing great but nothing that would put him off his food. Something like 32 at the warm end, and 27 at the cool end. Maybe I'll bump up the temps a couple of degrees and see if that helps bring his appetite to where it should be.

 

[benjamind2010]

The two eggs on the bottom left of that photo developed a bit of mould, a friend of mine was visiting when I decided to check on the eggs. A good thing I did. We quickly nipped it in the bud with tinea powder. Hopefully the eggs will still be vital. Fingers crossed. In all seriousness it really didn't look all that bad. There was a blotch of mould about the size of a 5 cent piece on one of those eggs.

Female woma was checked over by the vet. Female RSP had a check over as well since she refused a feed - something she's never done before. Nothing wrong with the RSP. Nothing seriously wrong with the female woma either, no signs of any major respiratory infection, only a minor infection, she looks intact, although a little weak - most likely from her egg laying. I'll come clean, she was really too small to be breeding. She was only about 1.7kg when I put the male over her, and she lost quite a deal of weight through her breeding, she should have been 2.5kg at least. I later learned that females are actually larger than males. Won't do that again. Lesson learned. Treatment plan is simply raising her temps to 36 degrees in her hot spot and observe her for the next 2 or 3 weeks, and feed her smaller food sizes, but more frequently. Piece of cake.

6yo spotted also smashed a 65g quail last night.

 

[GeckoJosh]

I didnt know you used perfume, I think that may have beensome of the cause of her lack of health, that, the low temps and her being undersized.
For future breeding you really dont need to go overboard with getting rid of hte egg scent, personally I clean the enclosure then wipe mine down with non-scented baby wipes (many highly experienced breeders would consider that over board), many experienced breeders I know will just remove the lay box and just leave her a week and then offer food - works for them.

 

[benjamind2010]

Josh, the perfume was non-toxic and I only really put a tiny amount where the eggs were. That is all. There was no breathing in from the snake. The snake was out of the enclosure when I put the perfume in there. It was also well hosed down and F10'd so there was not a trace of anything left. I never left the perfume actually in there, just to eliminate the initial scent.

Those two really moldy eggs. Both were confirmed dead this morning. One was absolutely rotten inside, all pussy and greyish brown, looked like sludge, the embryo had broken up and disintegrated. That's where most of the smell came from and it was so bad it nearly knocked me over. The embryo in the other egg was starting to go rotten, the blood vessels were disintegrated, the embryo was a grey color and was starting to stink. The eggs were taken out to the garbage tip with today's disposal truck...I didn't take any pics, but I can ascertain they were both well and truly dead.

I must admit I still have some residual nausea from this morning's egg tragedy. Seriously, that was one of the most putrid smells I've ever come across. It was worse than the dead cat my dad found in a drain back in 1989, it was full of maggots, it died because it got stuck in a drain during a storm and drowned, we didn't find the cat until about 6 days later. The smell of whatever was inside this egg was worse than that. Incredibly vile.

 

[Beans]

That's why you should candle the eggs. You can usually tell if it's alive or not from that.

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[Maximum]

Good luck with the rest of the clutch - I've been watching with interest. I'd love to have a go at breeding down the track and it's good to see some of the things to look out for.

 

[benjamind2010]

That's why you should candle the eggs. You can usually tell if it's alive or not from that.

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Both eggs were candled. I saw no veins in the really bad egg, and could not see any defined veins in the other one. Both stunk, and that is as sure a sign as anything.

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Good luck with the rest of the clutch - I've been watching with interest. I'd love to have a go at breeding down the track and it's good to see some of the things to look out for.

Mold is a big problem with incubating eggs. My incubator had a design flaw, and that has since been rectified. However, I lost 2 eggs from that mistake, so hopefully next year or the year after, I will be fortunate enough to get a 100% hatch rate.

But the remaining 6 eggs. One looks quite small, and I don't hold as much hope for that one, however, I think the other 5 will be just fine.

Que sera sera...

 

[Ramsayi]

Seriously, that was one of the most putrid smells I've ever come across.

The worst smell when it comes to reptiles are regurges without doubt.

Mold is a big problem with incubating eggs

Mould is a problem because of bad eggs.Healthy eggs don't get mouldy.