Hybrids good or bad?

[Morgan_dragon]

Raises hand.

We already have that situation with GTPs. We call them Biak, Sorong, this and that but the fact is, they were locality cross-bred a long time ago in a South Asian snake farm before they reached our shores and no one knows what they are other that "GTPs."
It would be a great step forward if all the pure locality line breeders (I have no idea how many there are) would identify themselves and advertise their snakes as such. I can see a lot of merit in that. We desperately need to form an association of that kind before it's too late (like in the US).

 

[Bushman]

...liking the look of a snake is not enough for me, I am interested in their ecology, biology, behaviour, etc., and those mongrels "tell me" nothing of substance or if they do, I can't interpret it because such information would be artificial. That's my stand point and whilst I don't deplore what others do, I feel it's time for separation of interest.

This is a critically important point that you make here Michael and is fundamental to the very reason that some of us keep reptiles in captivity.
Like many other herpers, I'd much rather observe wild animals doing their thing in the bush. In fact, I still do this at every opportunity I get (which is almost daily, as I back bush) but we can also learn a lot about our native fauna by observing and studying them at close quarters.
For those of us that look more deeply at animals in the hope that we may discover something new about them the reward great. Significant contributions have been made by amateur herpetologists worldwide and they continue to do so. Being able to keep reptiles privately in Australia was a hard fought battle against significant opposition from some members of the bureaucracy. Some of these authorities argued that if given the opportunity we'd muck it up. We are in real danger of doing this with the disturbing increase of hybridization, smuggling and introduction of exotic lines and species. It's of great concern to those of us that realize just how close we are coming to doing just that. The hobby is being very closely watched by the authorities and they don't like what they see (although some the opponents of keeping native animals do!).
We have been given a great privilege in being allowed to keep our native animals in captivity.
Let's not spoil it...please!

 

[longqi]

In the GPT thread there are photos of 2 GTPs
I think they were Sarongs
Possible posted by Baden?? Solar??
They were the most classic examples of that 'type' I have ever seen outside Indonesia
It would be a crying shame if that line isnt kept as pure as possible

One day locale specific animals will become important again

 

[Waterrat]

There is only one way to keep track on any pure line and that is a DNA evidence. Fingerprinting is not that expensive or complicated in these days and will be cheaper and more readily available in the future. I keep DNA samples from each and every GTP that I keep as breeders or future breeders - those buying their progeny can request a piece of slough (good enough if kept properly) from the parents and I would be happy to oblige.
That's the sort of thing we have to be looking into if we are to keep pure locality lines. The tests don't have to done straightaway on every snake and every transaction but it will keep the breeders honest.

 

[fugawi]

I personally think we should be looking at Europe and the USA and learning from their mistakes. Hybrids, Jags, crosses etc will be pumped out like McSnakes by "Puppy farm/Battery hen" buisnesses, with the attitude "keep these 2 and euthanise the rest". All this for designer pets we really don't need.
We have enough problems with feral animals and unscrupulous buisnesses without adding another potential problem.

 

[Greenmad]

There is only one way to keep track on any pure line and that is a DNA evidence. Fingerprinting is not that expensive or complicated in these days and will be cheaper and more readily available in the future. I keep DNA samples from each and every GTP that I keep as breeders or future breeders - those buying their progeny can request a piece of slough (good enough if kept properly) from the parents and I would be happy to oblige.
That's the sort of thing we have to be looking into if we are to keep pure locality lines. The tests don't have to done straightaway on every snake and every transaction but it will keep the breeders honest.

Michael great ideas but how do you know if the original stock is pure ?

 

[Waterrat]

Michael great ideas but how do you know if the original stock is pure ?

You can never know and that's why we need to convince the wildlife agencies to let us take some reptiles from the wild - under their supervision and endorsement that they are genuine locality animals. It will happen with Oenpelli pythons and it should happen with all other species. Taken from the wild, registered DNA, register of owner breeders, etc.. We will have to start from the scratch and that is my mission in this game. I'll be happy to surrender all my GTPs if I was given a permit to collect new stock from the wild and start again.

 

[nervous]

Michael great ideas but how do you know if the original stock is pure ?

You can never know and that's why we need to convince the wildlife agencies to let us take some reptiles from the wild - under their supervision and endorsement that they are genuine locality animals.

Michael, are you saying that you aren't 100% sure that your greens are pure australian natives?

 

[Waterrat]

Michael, are you saying that you aren't 100% sure that your greens are pure australian natives?

No, that's not what I am saying - there are others who think my GTPs aren't 100% native. I would be happy to start all over again just to shut up the cynics and to have the founding stock certified by the QPWS. I, in turn would be responsible for producing pure line progeny with no foreign blood mixed in (as some breeders do with our natives). Maybe I would take up a few other locality specific species, provided I would be allowed to take the stock from the wild (personally). It would be a good start but it's nothing more that a dream because our bureaucrats don't see the light even if it's shining!

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Undoubtedly hybrids have tainted our hobby to some perspective. Speaking for myself, (If I was into buying morelia for example), I would never purchase of anybody who keeps jungles if they supported hybrids or kept jags. I know plenty of other people who also have this view and I believe this is a growing number. In fact if I know of anyone who keeps either, I will never deal with them buying or selling.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Heres my veiw .


The facts are ? we all have licences and can breed and keep what ever is deemed legal in each state.


In regards to the Carpet python ? this is a truely polygenic python.
Look it up.
heres a link.
Quantitative trait locus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Every aspect of this species is one of gradual change moulded by their specific habitat and there polygenic genes.
Carpet pythons are locality colour and pattern forms "period" end of story . Not seperate sub species.

With the acception of Bredli and Imbricata.

All carpet pythons found in QLD are the one species stated by QLD laws and this is the correct view on this species .IMO.
So they are listed as such by QLD Wildlife departments.

Breeding different colour and pattern forms together jungle to coastal is still breeding the same species.

Breeding a Green tree Python to a carpet is definately a hybrid.
Same as breeding a Olive python to a Water Python. HYBRID.
These hybrids are illegal in QLD so the state regulations will apply to these Hydrids.


As far as keeping locality colour phase form Carpet python pure ?
I am 100% in favour of this , its a great idea . Something I already do.
What could be better than keeping pure Palmerston line like this female .

or this male Cowley jungle male bred by Rob Mcleod.

But i will breed them together for genetic diversity. I believe its the right thing to do.

Some palmerston bloodlines are extreemely inbred and genetic problems are starting come threw now dew to lack of genetic diversity .

So i believe breeding different localitys together will benifit those hobiests who wants the most stunning examples of Black & yellow jungles.

Heres a example of a designer Jungle Carpet Python from mixed locality bloodlines .
Bred by a Angie K , she used a pair of my mixed locality stock , tully /palmerston/ obee/wilson lines
A REAL MONGROL

Heres a Black & Gold example of a Simon Stone bloodline Atheron jungle Carpet bred by Colin.

Heres a suspected Axanthic colour phase jungle Carpet produced by Simon Stone.
A fine man and major sponcer here.
Simon would breed his best B&G pair together and some clutches would produce 1/4 of that clutch B&W colours.

Some of the breeders who have the desire to maintain top quality locality specific bloodlines also have the integrity to keep these lines pure ?
But they also choose to breed carpet pythons of mixed locality "Designer" forms together from different localities to create new or interesting forms for hobby purposes only.

Just so I am clear , breeding a Carpet python to another Carpet python in QLD is legal in my opinion .

But breeding a Green Tree Python to a Carpet python would be a hybrid and illegal in QLD .

I will always breed Carpet Pythons together .

But i would never breed a carpet Python to a Green tree Python because this is a HYBRID.....
I dont even keep GTPs anymore , I prefer my pretty carpet pythons instead.
Each to their own is my moto etc


cheers
Roger

 

[Waterrat]

The answer to genetic vigor in locality pure lines is to start with 5-6 unrelated pairs, not 1 or 2. Alternatively, add a new bood-line from the wild every few years (from the same location).

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Respectfully Michael
You think that i dont already know that ?
and im definately not interested in your last recommendation for obvious reasons.


Roger

 

[moosenoose]

Anyway, I reckon they are good :lol: I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks

 

[Morgan_dragon]

Just out of pure curiosity....

How many were in the clutch and what do the other hatchlings look like?

Do they behave more like a Chondro or a Carpet?

 

[LadyJ]

Reported neuro issues thusfar?

 

[morelia-mental]

There were 14 eggs in the clutch 13 hatched fine and one was full term dead in the egg. I would say 50% stay on the floor in the day but they do all perch up on an evening. They also all fed before their first shed and havent missed a feed yet.
Non are showing any issues, they are growing faster than previous true gtp clutches gaining both weight and size. Not a planned breeding but an interesting one, they are all similar in appearance even though we expected the jag influence to deem 50% to look different.
Thanks for all of your views and thoughts ( the good and the bad )

 

[Morgan_dragon]

Do you have pics of the other hatchlings?

 

[FusionMorelia]

They are nice, well some of them. I keep some mongrels too and I like the look of the. However, liking the look of a snake is not enough for me, I am interested in their ecology, biology, behaviour, etc., and those mongrels "tell me" nothing of substance or if they do, I can't interpret it because such information would be artificial. That's my stand point and whilst I don't deplore what others do, I feel it's time for separation of interest.

so would an amnesty GTP and native GTP pairing be a mongrel mix?

 

[shell477]

Any pic updates on this stunning fellow??