Banning Snakes in the USA - Next Australia?

[BARRAMUNDI]

Weezer, I can see that point of view. Maybe I am being a bit of a downer, but from what I have seen on this and other forums, cohesion between reptile keepers rarely occurs. Most topics that will arise that will be addressed by these committee's are going to be controversial, and when it comes to controversy, people run hot and say and do silly things. All we need to do is look through some threads on this forum for evidence.

I understand that these people saying and doing silly things wont be on the committee, however they are still going to be affiliated with these committees once they join. I dont think we are going to be able to stop them from joining. If or when these people say or do something we all regret, its going to make the committee look less credible. As you said transperancy is paramount, but I think it is hard to achieve.

It sounds like most people believe there is a concern with the public image of Reptile Keepers, the only way to change that public image is to reduce or even eliminate the irresponsible keepers, a national body cant and wont do this. As I said we really need our current state authorities to tighten up keeping standards, perhaps even conduct more inspections.

As I said, a national body is a positive move, however IMO its effectiveness in regards to tackling issues I feel is going to be very limited.

But like weezer said, at least we are doing something.

 

[Weezer]

No, I agree Barra, it only takes one bad apple- and I am doing my best to be diplomatic here because I happen to like this site and have made many a friend here...and many an enemy (just as rewarding btw) ....but back on track- without anything in place at all- ie, the status quo- if there is a sudden push to eradicate our hobby, then all we are left with is this forum. Not that I think we are terribly at risk from anything but the egos of a few.

I do find it extremely hard to accept that there will not be bias, self serving acts, politics, controversy, anger and finally division.... but welcome to earth everyone because that kind of vibe is everywhere we look anyway. it happens at my kid's cake stall and allllllllll the way to Government house.

..glance through these forums and you will see we cant agree on what gives a keeper credibility (is it years in the game, money in the bank, variety of species, breeding skills, website hits, husbandry knowledge, who writes for what magazine, how many friends in high places you have..which dep't you hang with, how many names you can drop in one breath, who you advertise through...blah blah blah)

...then there is the morph/RPM, hybrid/exotic debate....then there is the matter of who should be in control of regulating our community,....then there is the pay for credibility debate (I sponsor this, write for that, know this guy, am that guy etc...)

So what we need in all reality is a bunch of clubs- they don't have to be "Sunday afternoon let's debate the issue and compare morphs" kinda clubs- just small groups of common interest- (I for one and am all for nominating myself as president of the "30+ misfits who like beardies and grunge bands club"

If we all had our own little scenes, and then came together for the odd forum with reps from the other clubs- then maybe we would have a shot at one day reading from the same page- but the sort of process we are currently debating is several years away from reaching any sort of goal. And forming a bunch of satellite clubs is fraught with hurdles- there is the time it takes to gather members, draw up a charter, get to know one another, weed out the teething problems and ********s etc....then of course we will run the risk of finding we have EVERYTHING in common with our membership, and nothing in common with the rest, and it will only serve to divide us more from the rest of you....

And according to the ones that know "......." we can have our herps taken with a couple of parliament whispers before we know it, so we have to hurry quick run the tsunami is coming everybody's going to die- but I dont think we are on course for the USA crash that appears to be unfolding- because I think the States in Oz do a fair job of regulating a relatively novel and young scene- let's face it- they do not meddle with us common herpers- they stamp our papers and our licence applications...and we do not have a situation like the States where I can buy an Iguana on ebay that matches the colour of my Burmese Python- so regulation is definitely a little, umm...professional than what has gone on in Florida... (poetic licence I know, but you get my drift).

The government has records of all our herps on file...and doesnt come knocking unless I post a Cobra for sale on Herptrader or put up pics of my PitBull playing with my Coastal in ChitChat... so as long as we keep our noses clean, and condemn those ****wits that do silly things like let their croc out for a walk, or threaten ladies with pythons; and we don't try and push for open slather on exotic imports- then we are out of sight, out of mind- and none of the vitriole that we hear about PETA, RSPCA, animal liberation or the Czech Communist Party is going to sway me from the opinion that we are on a hiding to nothing. Not when I am member of the first 3 and would have walked instantly had i heard the slightest of rumbles..if you have read any of my posts over the years you will know I do not suffer fools. And the last thing you will hear from me is "trust me, I know.." when the several times I have read that sentiment in this thread I have imagined shooting humans. I kid.

But that said, I will throw my hat in the ring, or my wallet, for any organisation that has legitimate interests regarding ANY animal. There are always going to be ****ers involved in the hobby- but that doesnt mean we have to shake their hand, offer them unconditional respect , vote them onto a board or carry on like their years of experience are worth more weight than our years of common sense.

So like I have said- the President of this movement is going to need to be a diplomat; educated, accessible and not prone to thinking insecure and elitist opinions- but open to populist opinion, willing to cop it on the chin and have the ability to show respect even if smiling through his teeth. All the experience in the world doesn't make up for flawed character, so providing the criteria is met- then I will jump in without checking the temperature.. for too long.

But we are going in circles here.... and all because of some choice emotive posts and a sky-is-falling mentality ..... over a country whose original regulatory processes were never like our current practices, and whose native wildlife situation is being threatened in ways ours is not...

I would LOVE to see one piece of honest proof that there is indeed a witch hunt- that we are already on the chopping block- that any of the animal rights groups are circling us like wolves- that our native fauna is in jeapordy due to our hobby or at least the idiots invlved with it- that our government has been infiltrated by Bono....that there is any threat WHATSOEVER.

one document- one media publication- all I hear is anecdotal rhetoric.

but hey- get the ball rolling guys, I will throw a little cash in, just as I have for any org that is having a go. but I am not funding a bunch of elitist oldtimers who can't even put together a sentence that is not littered with condescending overtones and poor grammar.

typos are ok though. I'll kop that

teehee.

 

[garycahill]

Well put Weezer.
This is the type of thinking that will get the hobby to it's required destination.
I personally back this 100%
Where do I sign up Weezer?

 

[Weezer]

Well Gaz, I reckon the first step is a social one- let's set a date after the New years Shennanigans are over , on a Sunday, where all the States individually meet up...of course given the size and scope of each State- (and pardon my QLD focus but consider it a general example), we could organise something along the lines of:

brisbane (covering Goldie & Sunny Coasts, Toowoomba, maybe even Byron,

Fraser Coast (Gympie, hervey Bay, Maryborough, bundy etc)

NSW could cover Sydney, Hunter Region, South Coast, etc

and so on and so forth- we just gather for a BBQ in our respective haunts, with no agenda and no official debate- just a bunch of herpers blowing the froth off a few and cooking up some grub.

the only way to ensure a useful process is start off socially before we start chest thumping down the track...so let's line it up- catch up, put some names to faces and make some new friends- network, chill and enjoy the day.

With any luck the day will be enough of a success to then step it up it to a monthly gig- at which point we can start introducing some direct conversation- and by that I mean CONVERSATION; ideas, opinions and light candy....after that we can get into the nuts and bolts, start reporting back to the other regional groups and finding some commonality. if we focus on the common goals and ignore the bones of contention- we may just be able to circumvent the supposed inevitability of disagreement.

Give it a few months and by close of the financial year we will all have an idea of who the usual suspects are- who can offer a little input- and then we can start talking about interstellar war. But if we start off by lining up in the big steel cage with no rules and no softening period, it is going to get bloody very quickly and do more harm than good. So let's try it the Australian way.

I will throw on a couple of cartons, so anyone else that wants to come hang out can do the same- bring a little something for the masses - and once we have ideas of numbers and origins we can find a location that is nice and green and central to the majority.

Sound like a plan ?

Now in the interests of peace and harmony- I will offer my one and only United States reference to ponder:

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.”

“Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.”

“All of us do not have equal talent, but all of us should have an equal opportunity to develop our talents.”

“There are risks and costs to a program of action, but they are far less than the long-range risks and costs of comfortable inaction”

“The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.”


Mr kennedy had one very decent speech writer.



So let's try Option A before we go charging into Option double u tee eff.

 

[FAY]

'Ask not what your hobby can do for you, but what you can do for your hobby' LOL

 

[zulu]

re Banning

'Ask not what your hobby can do for you, but what you can do for your hobby' LOL

LMAO Garth, ive been s member of different societys in NSW since 1968,none has been more proggressive than Mac Herps,couldnt get the Hawkesbury society to have a reptile show over the years etc.Ile support what Mac Herps do and those that seek posts and would stand are mostly members of Mac Herps and will get voted in any way as John has stated.For those they cant see past my sense of humour i condem you all LOL, One media based society voted in by the people for the people at Mac Herps where everything gets done because peter lives just down the road LOL

 

[Weezer]

'Ask not what your hobby can do for you, but what you can do for your hobby' LOL

:lol:

There's always one loose cannon

 

[yellowman]

Im madd late on this but the only reason they really wanna ban the keeping of pythons and boas in the us is because people don't like snakes especially large snakes. Passing a law like this will just make the public feel safe nothing more. If a person in Maine, Michigan, New york, or even Alabama were keeping a python that got loose it wouldn't cause any harm to the native wild life because it wouldn't survive long enough to do any damage. The only reason they are a real threat in florida is because most of florida has a tropical climate. Outside of Florida and Hawaii there aren't many places in the US were exoic pythons and boas would be able to survive. If they really wanted to ban something that causes billions of dollars of damage and truly poses a threat to the ecosystem in the states they could ban the importation of many different species of exotic plants. Like i said at the beginning it's just a bill to make the public feel safe and also appease of the animal rights activist.

 

[SnakeyTroy]

This is just insane!
If the American govt is smart they will not allow this proposal to pass.

 

[SnakeyTroy]

I agree with you Yellowman.
The stupid part is that there are also millions of exotic Venomous snakes in the US. It surprises me that they are not pushing for these to be banned also.
God forbid that ever happens and God forbid this bill should ever pass.

 

[Weezer]

Well put Weezer.
This is the type of thinking that will get the hobby to it's required destination.

Oh,thanks Gaz.

i just don't want any coming out party to jump straight into battle and be seen as antagonist towards any of the animal rights groups, the EPA or Feds when p---ing them off is only going to steel any resolve to destroy us. If we go in with a truly transparent agenda, and a willingness to give the EPA whatever they need to allow us to keep on truckin' , then they will not have an argument.

Case in point (names removed to protect the guilty):

Two people want to organise a herp festival.

1. One goes in guns 'a blazing- trying to invoke his rights from the outset and jumping up and down like Lindsay lohan in a Coke commercial. EPA says- "no chance" and restricts the whole lot to the point of silliness. The organiser fires up and beats his chest. So the EPA rocks up to the festival and makes sure that nothing untoward goes down, and the event is little more than a kid's Birthday party.

2. Second person starts organising their festival. Invites the mayor. Then gets onto the EPA and offers them access to whatever they want. Asks the EPA; "What do you need from me to be happy". EPA says- "nothing, you are doing a great job". So now the stall holders start applying for one day demo licenses. They all sail through with no red tape. No specific bans are put in place other than those that are standard, such as no selling or auctioning herps off. Fine says the organiser. The day goes off without a hitch and not a single EPA rep in sight.

Which approach worked ? The latter.
Why ? because the EPA weren't treated like the enemy.
Lesson ? The EPA would rather help than kick you in the balls.

Moral to the story ? Don't bite the hand that feeds you, becasue it may be attached to the arm that joins the body that is held up by the feet that may kick your *** tomorrow.

So going in there with an Us vs Them mentality , as we have seen already in the NSW shennanigans- is only going to set the tone. Why not invite them to our gigs, our shows, encourage their input and all hold hands and listen to Bob geldof allbums and dance around the campfire and grow long sideburns and tie-dye our own t shirts ?

My Dad says that behaviour like that used to be groovy. man..

 

[Sdaji]

You make a good point, Weezer. We often blame the authorities for the 'us and them' mentality which causes both sides problems, but often we are the ones responsible. Even when it is them at fault, we can either choose to act wisely and make the situation better, or we can abuse them for causing trouble and make things slightly worse for them and severely worse for us.

In the long run, having a good relationship with the authorities which control us will pay off. If they hate us they will be inclined to support the RSPCA or any other group wanting to bring us down. If they like us, they will side with us.

If the NRKA or equivalent is to be established, that team needs to understand this issue and work to keep us all on the good side of the government departments. Equally importantly, they should educate the reptile community about how to behave appropriately.

My concern again falls back on the issue of people misusing the position. It is doubtful that this gig would ever involve paid positions, so it is likely that the main motivation for some people to get into the roles of power would be less than admirable. This can probably be avoided if everything is planned out carefully, and a few people active in this thread have had some excellent ideas and suggestions. I think we need to be extremely clear about the role of the NRKA and ensure that's what the members are working on.

 

[moosenoose]

:lol: Ive got an easy suggestion.... just arrange to get Kevin 07 a pet python and we're apples! :lol: Tell him there is nothing more Aussie than keeping a native python and it's good for votes!....... Plus it'll make him look more macho :lol: Thats gotta be easier, and far more convincing, than a bunch of cold-blooded reptile spokespeople trying to tell the general public their loveable RSPCA, protectors of puppies & dear little kittens, are evil swines and should be lynched!! :lol: ...... Why has this thread gone cold?

 

[Sdaji]

That's probably not quite so crazy an idea as it sounds. I wouldn't give plan A (NRKA) away, but it would probably be useful if we had a few politicians or their kids keeping pet snakes, as well as celebrities (we already have a few of those).

You're right, Moose. If the reptile keepers themselves are prone to supporting an organisation which seeks to destroy their own hobby, we have little hope of convincing the members of the community who actually hate snakes. Their area of greatest ability is publicity, and they do this so well that people don't know about all the bad things they do and everyone thinks that supporting the RSPCA simply equates to saving puppies and kittens, when the reality is they don't even do that (for every cat or dog they save, another one dies which otherwise wouldn't have, and causing one cat or dog to die instead of another costs the RSPCA a huge amount of money, which primarily comes out of the pockets of people who genuinely care about animals. Ironically, the RSPCA often ends up fining well-intentioned animal lovers who have spent many years financially supporting them! The RSPCA doesn't hate snakes and doesn't have a vendetta against us personally, they just believe that animals don't belong in captivity, they belong in the wild only (unless they are cats, probably because they still go out and kill wild animals, which makes it all okay). These people would rather see species go extinct than kept alive in captivity, they just don't think that something like a reptile belongs in private hands, no matter what, and they are very fanatical about it.

 

[Pythons Rule]

hey there I was searching you tube and I found this [video=youtube;rMLryadTflM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMLryadTflM[/video] its quite interesting lots of facts and facts on who is running the S373 and what there sole goal is. check it.

 

[herptrader]

The issue I have with something like the ARKA is its tight focus. An entity with a less of a tight focus - say all Australian animals ("Australian Native Animal Keepers Association" for example.) would probably garner more support because of its broader base. It would also potentially include those that have a real phobia of scaly critters.

The challenge here would be to get all the different interested parties to agree and cooperate. It is hard enough to get a bunch of herpers to agree on a common goal let alone herpers and marsupial lovers.

I have been mentally trying to assemble a charter for such an organisation that gets the balance right and would pull together popular broad based support.

 

[Colin]

the only reason they really wanna ban the keeping of pythons and boas in the us is because people don't like snakes especially large snakes. Passing a law like this will just make the public feel safe nothing more..

Id be more worried about being shot and/or robbed in the USA than I would be about being attacked by a giant python.. but I suppose if I watched an anaconda movie marathon maybe Id feel differently :lol: It might be a good idea if the americans cleaned up all the illegal drugs and guns and crime etc to make the public feel safe before they make the public feel safe from "anaconda" or the gator from "lake placid"

 

[Weezer]

Some great points-

moosie- you entertainer; you aren't too far off the mark. If i wanted a room full of interested journo's to front up and garner some airtime for us- I would be inviting guests whose public interest is undeniable- celebrities, musicians, evn the odd pollie- for instance the Ipswich Mayor rocked up at Joy's herpfest and was well impressed- that is a start in QLD- we all know how those Pollies love to get their sexy-on for the cameras.

Sdaji- glad you agree mate. the first olive branch is simple- we invite the EPA, RSPCA (whose representative we will choose wisely- i am already on it but will reveal my hand later and not here) and any other relevant authority to participate from an early stage- let them know we encourage their input- if we can get them in on the charter-writing...participating in the agenda process, then the agenda we push through as final will be theirs also to push. the fight will be as much a PR exercise for them as it is for us. I have a few enviro buddies in various green causes outside of animal lib- so I can bring them to the table, knowing that there will be no risk of spy infiltration, considering their foucs is broader and not exclusively fauna related anyway- if nothing else, they are nice green-friendly logos that will work wonders in the PR game.

Also, i dont think the RSPCA has a unanimous anti-captive mentality- after all, those volunteers which the animal welfare league and SPCA utilise; have houses full of cats, dogs and sick animals- so we just have to tap into the values that we hold in common- animal rescue, rehab, anti-cruelty etc... it is not a big jump and for the most part these are values we all have as herpers anyway, so we are not being deceptive; just selective in our approach.

Herptrader- right on mate- the less "specialised" we appear to be- the further reaching our community support will be. Once we have our own herp scene going (in terms of a charter, a little organisation and some fund raising activities that are not herp-exclusive), then we will have a model which will help the other scenes to fast track their position to ours without too much financial and mental strain. But first we need to get our house right- otherwise we will end up struggling to find our own identity if our values conflict with theirs.

Colin- you are dead on about the USA and it's social problems- but let's get out of Compton for a second The point you make is real- and if there is a sudden push to annihilate our hobby- it will be mainly due to some act of idiocy that sells papers and riles up the public. We NEED to have a national PR group . This is something we should aim for before any politics are discussed and dissected. We will need a website, (which I can sort out if need be) that is profesional and which openly sells our charter and our openness to input, debate and is relative to fauna outside of the herp world. We NEED a group of 3-5 in each State who can monitor the media, and alert the site admins to anything that can be used against us- then we ritually destroy and hang to dry any idiot that makes our job hard so that we can distance ourselves from these w---ers. Then it is as simple of sending out weekly media releases to all the big guns- major/pay TV networks, community and national radio networks, print publications etc... regardless of whether our gear goes to print- this is not the aim in the early stages- we are establishing a diect line of communication in the media so that the perception is that we are approachable and active- so if the proverbial you-know-what hits the fan- we will be the first point of call when they need the talking head shot for their newscasts. That way- we ensure that WE are the voice of reason and the ones who have the right to reply regardless of the journo's intentions to skew a story to suit their editor's bias- instead of some RSPCA delegate who thinks all snakes are cobras.

 

[Weezer]

oh yeah

STICKY time !!!!!!???????

Colin...mate..where are you buddy ?

 

[Sdaji]

Weezer: No, the RSPCA does not have blanket anti pet policies, they strongly encourage the keeping of cats and dogs (they are more divided about some other domesticated animals). What they completely oppose is the keeping of most birds (I am fairly certain they would allow chickens, domesticated ducks and geese, etc, but I am not 100% sure on that point), reptiles, native mammals, etc. Certainly anything which is not long domesticated is opposed by them. There are no reptiles which come anywhere near fitting into the 'domesticated' category by their definition (and most other peoples') and all of the animals they encourage the keeping of have been domesticated for thousands of years. Reptiles are a long way away from that and not even one species of reptile comes anywhere near being accepted by them.

There are other groups which do seek a complete ban on all pets, cats and dogs included, and while some of these have some power, none have as much as the RSPCA, as least in Australia. Some of these groups have complete 'no contact between animals and humans' policies, and yes, that means we would all be vegan.