Some Morelia's

[BROWNS]

I see no reason to cross breed albinos to create new morphs ,depending on the animal crossed with on the whole you would more than likely produce animals that still look like the original Darwin albinos which if you've had a good look vary quite a lot.This is where things can get messy!

There are several Darwin morphs already in the hobby such as striped,hypomelanistic,hypermelanistic,ghost phase which could produce new morphs again and I daresay other very interesting results.Why not keep them pure,they are gorgeous animals already which vary a lotet so why think of what other sub species can you cross it with and try using available different morphs and types of Darwins to breed or have as a breeding project which would be more interesting than hybridising imo.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Browns
If your striped coastals were Co dom or Dominant
You would get a super form from pairing 2 Co Doms together , ?
Also Dominant means the whole clutch looks exactly like the parent carrying the trait,

Stripes are recessive ,,you will realise this once you have bred more than one clutch of stripes .
Hey Andrew no one can pm you because your mail box quoter is full,
How about deleting those old PMs so people can send you a message etc
Can you email me pics of your new Co Dom morph stripes ,
love to see them,
cheers
Roger

 

[pinkmus]

Love that melanistic jag

 

[NickM]

There are at least 5 co-dominant carpet mutations and all came from captive breeding outside Australia. Tiger, Tri-stripe, Caramel, jaguar and zebra.

All of these have super forms as well, the jags are the only one that are homozygous lethal.

there are no doubt countless co-dom traits in the wild in Australia they merely have not been found yet.

Virtually all the snake morphs that are bred in captivity are descended from a single founder animal, usually a Wild Caught

The reason we have so many ball python mutations is that ball pythons are imported byt he tens of thousands each year and all are scrutinized for anything unusuall.

I can guarentee you that if Australia allowed the export or collection of 10,000 wild carpets each year for 20 years there would be dozens of genetic mutations found in them as well.

For the record there is essentially no difference between a co-dom and a recessive trait, both are interited exactlyt he same way, the only difference is that in the co-doms we have the luxury of visual hets.

Nick

 

[Retic]

QM, it just shows how hard it is to tell Jags from others, in the 2nd photo that is 3 Austin Healeys

 

[cement]

.We will also be able to tell if they are jags when some of them,not all,develope neurogical problems which is an affliction suffered by many jags and has been spoken about thoroughly on other forums such as mp.com.

Yes I agree, Jags are here in Aus and they are on licence (with conditions placed on them, however a smuggler will circumnavigate any condition).

My concern is this, I have personally witnessed hybrid mating occuring in the wild. It does happen and is happening. Escapees from collections are surviving in the wild and do breed or at attempt to breed with the local species, and at local species expense.
To say that hybrids, Jags or whatever muddy compilation that slides, will never end up in the wild is pure dizzy headed conjecture.

I have found out of locality snakes, moniters and turtles.

If hybridising is too much of an attraction for the percentage of population that can't think beyond themselves, then we should address it and put some federal laws in place to at least attempt to keep them indoors. Keep them like vens. In lockable enclosures in an escapeproof lockable room.

Northern Death Adders are being knocked around by the cane toad. Its possible a solution to cane toad genocide is around the corner so where will we get the adders from to repopulate areas? Answer- Captivity. Captive bred animals are quite often put back when the threat is removed, why would pythons be any different? No-one can see the future, at best we make informed decsisions.

Its quite possible that the purists may be called on one day to fix a problem caused by the hybrid non thinkers.

Whats the old saying,"it's not the cat's fault, but the owners"
I don't blame the poor hybrid snake and yes some of them are pretty little ornaments.
Our wild populations may be plentiful but there not limitless. I'd wear a bag over my head too if I was advertising something that has the ability to further stuff our natural ecology. Millions of years of evolution and some business man with a bag on his head starts trying to sell his wares to an unsuspecting public. Thats what this thread is about. Testing the waters to find the right time to make a dollar. If it was about something good for the ecosystem, something that required real thought and effort that would make a change for the best, he wouldn't look like KLUKLUXCLAN.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Thanks for enlightening us with your fairy tale Nick,
I so look forward to the many many Co Dom morphs that are about to be discovered in the wild and that are about to spontaniously turn up in our collections , just like jags i presume ? lol .

the truth will unfold in the future
stay tuned

Just curious has anyone done a scale count on the zebra morph ? or jags ?

 

[zulu]

re Some

.We will also be able to tell if they are jags when some of them,not all,develope neurogical problems which is an affliction suffered by many jags and has been spoken about thoroughly on other forums such as mp.com.

Yes I agree, Jags are here in Aus and they are on licence (with conditions placed on them, however a smuggler will circumnavigate any condition).

My concern is this, I have personally witnessed hybrid mating occuring in the wild. It does happen and is happening. Escapees from collections are surviving in the wild and do breed or at attempt to breed with the local species, and at local species expense.
To say that hybrids, Jags or whatever muddy compilation that slides, will never end up in the wild is pure dizzy headed conjecture.

I have found out of locality snakes, moniters and turtles.

If hybridising is too much of an attraction for the percentage of population that can't think beyond themselves, then we should address it and put some federal laws in place to at least attempt to keep them indoors. Keep them like vens. In lockable enclosures in an escapeproof lockable room.

Northern Death Adders are being knocked around by the cane toad. Its possible a solution to cane toad genocide is around the corner so where will we get the adders from to repopulate areas? Answer- Captivity. Captive bred animals are quite often put back when the threat is removed, why would pythons be any different? No-one can see the future, at best we make informed decsisions.

Its quite possible that the purists may be called on one day to fix a problem caused by the hybrid non thinkers.

Whats the old saying,"it's not the cat's fault, but the owners"
I don't blame the poor hybrid snake and yes some of them are pretty little ornaments.
Our wild populations may be plentiful but there not limitless. I'd wear a bag over my head too if I was advertising something that has the ability to further stuff our natural ecology. Millions of years of evolution and some business man with a bag on his head starts trying to sell his wares to an unsuspecting public. Thats what this thread is about. Testing the waters to find the right time to make a dollar. If it was about something good for the ecosystem, something that required real thought and effort that would make a change for the best, he wouldn't look like KLUKLUXCLAN.

Your right cement,but lets face it the authorities that actually administer the reptile keeping systems are just in it for the money the same as those that would breed the crosses,its a grubby little pet type system full of fees and charges.Wildlife to DEC in a few years time will be an albino darwin carpet diamond coastally thing and they wont get care because the suckers will be paying license fees,its all about money everywhere.

 

[indicus]

Pure line breeders also line their pockets! Come on, If your intentions were that noble you would make it affordable for most to be able to keep them. Don't tell me its an art to line breed morelias, they breed without much manipulation. And they breed with anything. If you made it more affordable to buy say black and white jungles, then keepers would not feel the need to experiment. But the market has always been controlled by some of the old timers on this forum. Now their grip on the hobby is slowly loosening on the hobby. Just look at the uproar that happened about gtp prices dropping. Money, money, money! Makes the world go round hey! Let's see the uproar when jags start getting sold for $500 or less. What do you think people will spend their hard earned cash on? I am still going to have a good laugh about this debate in a couple of years time. Ihaveherps: very well posted! I will have a debate with you any day! Why do anti hybrid posters always have to become abusive. (Ihaveherps excluded).

Please excuse me for having an opinion; which wish's to address the many pitfalls of breeding hybrid type forms...
The only distinction I see ...
Those who intentionally hybridize; fail to address issues that where all aware have the very real possibility;
of polluting how we see morelia in this country from here on; lets here it?...is it plausible an assumption; that they don't care?
To further popularise their crosses; now there seen to use deception; in proving the origins of their 'jag' like morelia...
To those less fortunate to know better; the desire to hybridise becomes an attractive prospect especially if
there's a possibility of breeding an 'aussie jag' by crossing locality form animals.
Pure, hybrid; regardless of type; a nice looking animal will always fetch higher prices; everyone wants the best.
Sadly the markets desire for designer morphs (I'm no exception); has most breeders trying to achieve a better then average animal through refining their lines.
To say theirs no forethought or art in breeding for trait colour or pattern is ridiculous...
gone are the days of just putting two snakes together; have they not?
Whether line breeding locality forms or hybridizing; prices at present reflect an economic slump; or an over all saturation in the hobby of almost all species.
I find it amusing that many of those for hybridisation; attribute the line breeding of locality morphs; to producing animals that display little resemblance to their wild counter parts....line breeding only accentuates pattern/colour and endeavours to achieve a higher percentage of desired traits per clutch.

It's not a matter of Purists (don't you love labels) verses hybridisation; but what's best for future of our morelia and the hobby in this country.
I commend those keepers who are honest; even though I; and others may not agree in practise...
However when it's done without addressing these issues; forgive me in thinking;
it shows a lack insight or concern for the future of the many locality forms now available.
On that note; publications use pretty snakes to sell mag's and in all fairness to show what's out there; this is commendable.
Would it also be sound journalism and probably in the interests of us all; to discuss with readers the possibilities and issues with regards to breeding hybrid type animals....just a thought.

Cordylus you seem to have a few user names on this site
as expressed in my post; there are many pure lines available; take your pick.
I will if you wish; entertain your cheap shot at my animals...
I feel that I've gone out of my way to supply the buyer the best animals I can; often passing onto customers what other breeders would hold back.
Incidentally I've given the pick of the best I've bred away for the last three seasons; as long as I've been breeding the B/W's
You'd may be surprised to know I've probably given away as many animals as I've sold; not quite; but a lot none the less ...it's not all about money to some of us.
I whole sale most of the animals I breed these days...what more do you expect from me?
I'll now leave you to do your research; who knows you may surprise me by contributing something worth while; in one way or another.

 

[m.punja]

QLDmorelia, Thank you for being to scared to identify yourself and too ashamed to let people know who you are because the photo's of you hiding your mug behind that paper bag have been keeping me laughing . Thank goodness you aren't more proud of your hybrids and actually admited who you are or this thread wouldn't be anywhere near as funny.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Who says I was talking about you indicus? Point taken. Honesty I guess, is the issue. As well as the lynch mob.

 

[indicus]

Who says I was talking about you indicus? Point taken. Honesty I guess, is the issue. As well as the lynch mob.

I wonder why I thought you were talking about me; seemed to be the obvious.
And yes honesty is an issue.....
If people like me can keep our biased opinions to ourselves; just maybe we'll hear from those breeding and trading in hybrid forms; sure they'll be willing to answer a few questions to help put my mind to rest...I don't want to lynch anyone

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

There will never be a correct answer! What's right to you and what's right to me can be two different answers. Could you explain your theory Roger? About the origin of co dom traits in Aussie morelias? I would also like to hear your theories about recessive traits.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Cordylus
Well we dont have true Co dom traits in the wild now and never will ,
i believe we only have recessive traits in our reptile populations here ,
its that simple ,
if we did have reptiles with Co Dom traits ? then by its mode of inheritance ,
ie half of all offspring from a Co dom trait would be co dom as well .?
this would mean there should be lots of co dom jags and zebras in the wild ?
but there are no such morphs in the wild,
The Co Dom traits would be more common in the wild than albinos ? but we have none ?
Look at the mode of inheritance ?????????

So far all our natural occuring colour or pattern phases are recesive by mode of inheritance,
even stripes , but with stripes you have a far more complicated mode of inheritance than simple recessive , but they are still recessive in my view .

 

[cris]

Cordylus
Well we dont have true Co dom traits in the wild now and never will ,
i believe we only have recessive traits in our reptile populations here ,
its that simple ,
.

:shock:

 

[cement]

; just maybe we'll hear from those breeding and trading in hybrid forms; sure they'll be willing to answer a few questions to help put my mind to rest...I don't want to lynch anyone

This is a very good point, a debate on the pro's and con's of hybrids.
A full on, open book discussion so that anyone contemplating buying them can have an informative base to help make the decision.
I can't help but think that the way they are being eased into the system right now is nothing but typical of money hungry worms. Lets face it, some clown with a bag over his head:lol: telling us their the next best thing so get on board,Lol...Nameless, and hiding in the shadows gives ya less credibility than a shonky car dealer!! Must be good product if you can't be proud of it aye....

Imagine how the actual blokes that bought the cane toad over feel now!
Or someone who let go of a Burmese or two into the everglades cause it got too big for ya,

 

[Hetty]

What about melanistic blue tongueds? they're co-dom. The melanistic carpet probably is too.. amongst other things we don't know about.

 

[waruikazi]

Cordylus
Well we dont have true Co dom traits in the wild now and never will ,
i believe we only have recessive traits in our reptile populations here ,
its that simple ,
if we did have reptiles with Co Dom traits ? then by its mode of inheritance ,
ie half of all offspring from a Co dom trait would be co dom as well .?
this would mean there should be lots of co dom jags and zebras in the wild ?
but there are no such morphs in the wild,
The Co Dom traits would be more common in the wild than albinos ? but we have none ?
Look at the mode of inheritance ?????????

So far all our natural occuring colour or pattern phases are recesive by mode of inheritance,
even stripes , but with stripes you have a far more complicated mode of inheritance than simple recessive , but they are still recessive in my view .

I don't know that we can say things like that with any real certainty, i know you hold out the possibility of future morphs but there are carpet morphs in Australian collections that are yet to be bred from. Take the black darwins for example (yes there is an 's' on the end of darwin because there is more than just one that is black) as far as i am aware they have not been bred so we do not how this trait is passed on.

I've caught a wild darwin that was so dark you can hardly see a pattern and it's belly scales from about half way down have been solid black (it is in captivity and not held by me). It's only speculation but the black animals could be the super form of this type of snake. Then there's the funky MD's that old mate from a different forum bred the other season. Then there are snakes like this one below that i caught last year and is now held in captivity (not by me), it's all speculation and chances are nothing will come of it but there is the possibility that it could have a super form.

 

[NickM]

there are co-doms mutations in every species , in the wild, its that you may never find them before they are predated.

I can give you a list of nearly 50 co-dom mutations that have been found in the wild, just in the various python species. Why would you think carpets are different?

Ivory Bloods, Ivory Balls and Ivoy retics, all are co-dom and all were from WC founders. In each of these cases there have been wild caught SUPERS!!! and wild caught hets.

There are tons of co-dom retic morphs, all from wild stock, there are so many co-dom ball pythons I cant even shink of them all, but its at least 40.

Hypo, jungle, motley , all boa constrictor co-dom traits and all from wild stock

There are at least 5 co-dom blood python mutations, and again ALL are from wild stock!!!

There is even a new co-dom blood morph that is EXACTLY the same mutation as the zebra jungle, it even has the same patternless super phase, and you guessed it, all from wild stock.

with co-doms you rarely find wild supers, usually its the visible hets, and in many of these mutations the visible hets may only be subtley different than normals. Carpets are so variable that many of these sublte co-dom hets might go unoticed, or it would be thought to be the natural variation within the species. its sometines only after the super is produced that some breeders figure out what is happening.

Nick

 

[Jungle_Freak]

WARUIKAZI quote
I don't know that we can say things like that with any real certainty, i know you hold out the possibility of future morphs but there are carpet morphs in Australian collections that are yet to be bred from. Take the black darwins for example (yes there is an 's' on the end of darwin because there is more than just one that is black) as far as i am aware they have not been bred so we do not how this trait is passed on.
end quote


Gordon
Im talking about the mode of inheritance ?
Not that we will never find any more wild morphs .
The hypermelanistic darwins will be a recessive mode of inheritance ,
Roger



Nick M quote
there are co-doms mutations in every species , in the wild, its that you may never find them before they are predated.

I can give you a list of nearly 50 co-dom mutations that have been found in the wild, just in the various python species
end quote


Ok Thanks Nick
Thats the info i was after .
But mate with all those Co dom traits being found in the wild elsewhere ?
but none here ?,
Sort of confirms my theory that we have none .
Also with regards to Jags and Zebras these are Co dom traits that popped up in captivity ?
How can a Co Dom trait just turn up like this ?
and are you saying Co Dom traits randomly turn up from inbreeding in captivity ?
If so please give some other examples ,

cheers
Roger