Geklor
Active Member
Now pass the billy:lol:[/quote]
I would but you live so far away come to sydney and i can help ya out
I would but you live so far away come to sydney and i can help ya out
Striped Diamond holdbacks
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Inny, thanks for the comments, although I have not spent a number of years herping.. Hey some people have REAL jobs lol.. I HAVE done a little myself, but not just that, at one stage almost every Diamond that was rescued in Sydney area, I photographed.
I think that gives me a slight edge on the other less experienced people here. So I have, spent time looking at them.
As for mates/experts, I respect a lot of people who talk about this species, 1 being Serpentongue, another being Pythoninfinate, who rarely comes here anymore (who can blame him) and you know as I do, both have considerable amounts of experience in Spilota spilota, and the Morelia Complex overall. J has 40 years.. I wouldn't say he is someone who hasn't got some idea of what he is talking about..
I know its not all black and gold. Yes, I admit there will be variations, but not to that extent.. if there was a stripey one thrown in a whole normal clutch, maybe it was some sort of fluke morph, but when so many come out like that, it SCREAMS another influence.. Intergrades can produce huge variation in clutches.
Here are 2 from the same clutch. Intergrades can do this, Diamonds, dont. You take the Diamond looking one, and put it over another PURE diamond, what you going to get? Probably some of the snakes in this thread.
I think that gives me a slight edge on the other less experienced people here. So I have, spent time looking at them.
As for mates/experts, I respect a lot of people who talk about this species, 1 being Serpentongue, another being Pythoninfinate, who rarely comes here anymore (who can blame him) and you know as I do, both have considerable amounts of experience in Spilota spilota, and the Morelia Complex overall. J has 40 years.. I wouldn't say he is someone who hasn't got some idea of what he is talking about..
I know its not all black and gold. Yes, I admit there will be variations, but not to that extent.. if there was a stripey one thrown in a whole normal clutch, maybe it was some sort of fluke morph, but when so many come out like that, it SCREAMS another influence.. Intergrades can produce huge variation in clutches.
Here are 2 from the same clutch. Intergrades can do this, Diamonds, dont. You take the Diamond looking one, and put it over another PURE diamond, what you going to get? Probably some of the snakes in this thread.
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nightowl
Very Well-Known Member
Well, didn't I leave it a bit late to enter this thread! :lol:
True Steve, PMC's have a huge variation in colour and pattern. Here is a few pics of locale specific PMC's...
Port Macquarie
Port Macquarie
Port Macquarie
Port Macquarie
Kempsey
and a Gosford Diamond
I also believe in diamonds having a particular look about them that separates them from other Morelia. If it looks like a diamond, it is. If it doesn't have that 'typical' diamond markings then I wouldn't class it as a diamond.
Just my 2 cents....
I'm 16 not 14 Pugsly :lol:
indicus
Very Well-Known Member
Ok, lets not get personal....
Sure; I really do need to get a hair cut and a real job; your starting to sound like my mother :lol:
I understand what your getting at; and you may very well be right ?; but i will say; "never say never"....never underestimate what nature will throw at you .....it really can be surprising at times; never ceases to amaze me
Sure; I really do need to get a hair cut and a real job; your starting to sound like my mother :lol:
I understand what your getting at; and you may very well be right ?; but i will say; "never say never"....never underestimate what nature will throw at you .....it really can be surprising at times; never ceases to amaze me
BROWNS
Very Well-Known Member
PhilK
Very Well-Known Member
That first pic of nightowl's looks just like a diamond...
Thanks Shane, and nice snakes there Browns, I think intergrades are some of the most beautiful snakes in Oz, there colour, and common STRIPES lol.. along with the amazing variety makes them amazing IMO.
Inny, you may be right also, time will tell I guess. But for now, I will stick to what I have said, and I will be first to eat my words if I am proved wrong!
Inny, you may be right also, time will tell I guess. But for now, I will stick to what I have said, and I will be first to eat my words if I am proved wrong!
I will have to back Pugs on this one It is not uncommon to find striped Carpets in the wild, particulary Coastals, Jungles, Cape Yorks and even the odd Bredls. Intergrades found in mid coast NSW decending from their Carpet ancesters also commonly show striping specially at their northern range. However this trait has never been seen in Diamonds.
I have lived at Gosford almost all my life and have literally seen thousands of Diamonds over the years both in collections and the wild. I have probably bred more Diamonds than anyone in Australia. I know most long term herpers in NSW who have had anything to do with Diamonds. And I can assure you there has never been any record of a pure Diamond the like that Dan has breed last season.
IMO one of the parents was either a intergrade or a intergrade crossed with a Diamond. This would make the young hybrids, not intergrades.
To try and answer or correct some statements I will ad this.
Gosford is NOT the centre of Diamonds, in fact it is only about 80 to 100klm's south of pure Diamonds northern border.
I classify any intergrades between 2 subspecies(and there are many) as an animal that share charactoristics of both subspecies. NSW mid coast intergrades are normally easily recognised when seen live, however can sometimes be trickier to detect in pics as you can not see the entire animal or its true colouration in most cases.
Pure Diamonds on the other hand should have no Carpet markings or colouration. The most important charactoristic of the Diamond for which they were named is a yellowish spot on nearly every upper body scale, with the exception of around the rosettes. Sometimes this spot can be so small that its hard to detect(like Wollongong slug monsters) or can take up nearly all the scale(like a high yellow). Rossettes are optional, some dont have any, some do, but they are never very large like a Carpet marking.
Confusing descriptions in books are easy to explain as most authors from the past(and these are continually referenced too) thought intergrades were in fact Diamonds, hence Diamonds being found as far noth as Grafton. These same authors also believed that all Carpets and Childrens were the same species, and that freshwater turtles were toitoises. The point here is times change, we learn and correct ourselves and should not reference out of date data from old books. Even some modern day authors just reword old data and fail to update. Pitty.
Dans are not the only suspect Diamonds I have seen lately. There are others being bred outside of NSW and their breeders genuinely believe they are pure. But unless they actually collected their breeding stock from the wild than they really can NEVER give 100% gaurentees of their lines.
Just to throw some fuel on the fire, both parents of Dans young have been shown as high yellows, yet Dan sent me a pic of the female months ago and she looked just like a standard Diamond. They was also a wild caught intergrade being kept by dan at the same time. Food for thought.
I have lived at Gosford almost all my life and have literally seen thousands of Diamonds over the years both in collections and the wild. I have probably bred more Diamonds than anyone in Australia. I know most long term herpers in NSW who have had anything to do with Diamonds. And I can assure you there has never been any record of a pure Diamond the like that Dan has breed last season.
IMO one of the parents was either a intergrade or a intergrade crossed with a Diamond. This would make the young hybrids, not intergrades.
To try and answer or correct some statements I will ad this.
Gosford is NOT the centre of Diamonds, in fact it is only about 80 to 100klm's south of pure Diamonds northern border.
I classify any intergrades between 2 subspecies(and there are many) as an animal that share charactoristics of both subspecies. NSW mid coast intergrades are normally easily recognised when seen live, however can sometimes be trickier to detect in pics as you can not see the entire animal or its true colouration in most cases.
Pure Diamonds on the other hand should have no Carpet markings or colouration. The most important charactoristic of the Diamond for which they were named is a yellowish spot on nearly every upper body scale, with the exception of around the rosettes. Sometimes this spot can be so small that its hard to detect(like Wollongong slug monsters) or can take up nearly all the scale(like a high yellow). Rossettes are optional, some dont have any, some do, but they are never very large like a Carpet marking.
Confusing descriptions in books are easy to explain as most authors from the past(and these are continually referenced too) thought intergrades were in fact Diamonds, hence Diamonds being found as far noth as Grafton. These same authors also believed that all Carpets and Childrens were the same species, and that freshwater turtles were toitoises. The point here is times change, we learn and correct ourselves and should not reference out of date data from old books. Even some modern day authors just reword old data and fail to update. Pitty.
Dans are not the only suspect Diamonds I have seen lately. There are others being bred outside of NSW and their breeders genuinely believe they are pure. But unless they actually collected their breeding stock from the wild than they really can NEVER give 100% gaurentees of their lines.
Just to throw some fuel on the fire, both parents of Dans young have been shown as high yellows, yet Dan sent me a pic of the female months ago and she looked just like a standard Diamond. They was also a wild caught intergrade being kept by dan at the same time. Food for thought.
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PhilK
Very Well-Known Member
But buy your argument pugsly, it has all the markings of a diamond so it couldn't be anything else as nothing else looks like a diamond?
Colour me confused!
Colour me confused!
THANK YOU BIGGUY!!!
Geeeezuss..
Phil... Yes it has (not all) some of the markings of a pure diamond, but the part "so it couldn't be anything else as nothing else looks like a diamond?" is wrong. I never said nothing else looks like a Diamond, I said Diamonds that look like something else, are probably the something else!
Just because an intergrade looks like a Diamond means nothing, its very common. Thats what makes an intergrade an intergrade, the variability, in the pure Diamonds you just dont have the same or even close variability..
PLEASE tell me you are getting this...
Geeeezuss..
Phil... Yes it has (not all) some of the markings of a pure diamond, but the part "so it couldn't be anything else as nothing else looks like a diamond?" is wrong. I never said nothing else looks like a Diamond, I said Diamonds that look like something else, are probably the something else!
Just because an intergrade looks like a Diamond means nothing, its very common. Thats what makes an intergrade an intergrade, the variability, in the pure Diamonds you just dont have the same or even close variability..
PLEASE tell me you are getting this...
BROWNS
Very Well-Known Member
Even the third one could pass as pure if you ask me???Very good point philk,it looks like a diamond so it must be a diamond but if it loks like an intergrade it couldn't possibly be a diamond???
Yep thats it. Because thats the difference! Why am I the only one getting this... Intergrades have a huge variation, some look like coastals, some like Diamonds. Thats WHY there intergrades. Some resemble very closely like pure Diamonds.
A Diamond can IN SOME ways look like an intergrade, but not when it comes to the unique patterning. Thats WHY THERE DIAMONDS...
I owned 2 of those snakes shown, and can guarentee the 3rd one is NOT a Diamond.
A Diamond can IN SOME ways look like an intergrade, but not when it comes to the unique patterning. Thats WHY THERE DIAMONDS...
I owned 2 of those snakes shown, and can guarentee the 3rd one is NOT a Diamond.
nightowl
Very Well-Known Member
You can stop banging your head against the wall now Steve! :lol:
Some good points have been made on both sides here but it makes sense that diamonds are called that because of their pattern and the consistency of that pattern throughout the diamond range as opposed to, say, the 'Intergrades' variety of markings throughout their range.
I think some people may have what they think is a 'pure' diamond (even if it is WC) but could very well be an 'intergrade'. Then when they breed and produce certain patterns they are promoted as a new morph. For example, I could sell the python in that first photo as a diamond, then someone breeds it with their diamond and suddenly stripes and large blotches are being produced!
Also, just think of how many people get on here saying their snake escaped, plus the people that don't admit it! Now, sometimes these snakes are found but others aren't. What if someon's 'intergrade' escaped around Gosford, Sydney or even Wollongong? That 'intergrade' would then possibly breed with wild diamonds and produce hybrids in the wild. It doesn't mean that it is a 'natural' morph because the progeny were a result of someones insecure enclosure!
Finally, IMO the only reason someone would want to class a particular 'intergrade' as a diamond is money. If 'intergrades' were pulling the amount diamonds are we probably wouldn't see this argument as often.
Some good points have been made on both sides here but it makes sense that diamonds are called that because of their pattern and the consistency of that pattern throughout the diamond range as opposed to, say, the 'Intergrades' variety of markings throughout their range.
I think some people may have what they think is a 'pure' diamond (even if it is WC) but could very well be an 'intergrade'. Then when they breed and produce certain patterns they are promoted as a new morph. For example, I could sell the python in that first photo as a diamond, then someone breeds it with their diamond and suddenly stripes and large blotches are being produced!
Also, just think of how many people get on here saying their snake escaped, plus the people that don't admit it! Now, sometimes these snakes are found but others aren't. What if someon's 'intergrade' escaped around Gosford, Sydney or even Wollongong? That 'intergrade' would then possibly breed with wild diamonds and produce hybrids in the wild. It doesn't mean that it is a 'natural' morph because the progeny were a result of someones insecure enclosure!
Finally, IMO the only reason someone would want to class a particular 'intergrade' as a diamond is money. If 'intergrades' were pulling the amount diamonds are we probably wouldn't see this argument as often.
herpie boy
Well-Known Member
these threads are interesting to an extent, some good points have been made , but really the whole intergrade topic is as much a dead end issue as politics and religion....... enjoy
M
MrBredli
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Ka-Boom!! :shock:
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