Banning Snakes in the USA - Next Australia?

[JasonL]

Do you think that this national group should be controlling over it's members in any way, or just used as a political lever?

 

[RemoverAccount]

it is obviously a gross overreaction to the situation in the Everglades. I firmly believe a licensing system coupled with a bit of mandatory education would go a long way to levelling out their exotics problem. .

reaction or over-reaction. clearly self regulation hasnt worked! As was said - you make your bed...

 

[mysnakesau]

Maybe both, Jason. Political lever - absolutely. I would expect the likes of such a committee would be those who have been in the game for a long time and knowledgeable with their contact and advice on that side of things. Controlling? Well, if ppl in such a position are going to be fighting the laws so we can keep our hobbies I think they deserve some credit for their effort and we can show appreciation by biding by what they think is best. Department Envirnoment Climate Change are the controllers. A national group could be first with news of proposed changes and requesting support from its members to help make an affect.

 

[Daz_McC]

Too late. Exotic snakes are already banned in Australia. It looks like the US is trying to play catch up. Given the amount of money involved in the exotic reptile trade over there I don't think moves to restrict it will be particularly successful. I had to laugh at the conservation argument. As if any of these snakes are ever going to be involved in a species reintroduction project. Get real.

As for Oz, where has all this paranoia come from? Where are these animal rights bogey men trying to take reptiles away from keepers. Where are the government agencies preventing the keeping of native reptiles. Its a load of garabage and people who try to run this line just end up looking silly.

 

[cris]

Arent there already organisations in Australia that would like to see reptile keeping banned?
Would this give them enough ammo to get the ball rolling.?
I like Nicole and Lukes posts as they are more optimistic.
Nah, it could never happen here, surely.

There are animal liberationists in Australia and they have way too much power for their 'special' level of intellegence. A few examples of the stuff they have in qld include banning duck hunting completely, its illegal to feed shrimp to a turtle without humanely euthanaising them and pig hunting with dogs is also illegal(not enforced as far as i know).

 

[JasonL]

Maybe both, Jason. Political lever - absolutely. I would expect the likes of such a committee would be those who have been in the game for a long time and knowledgeable with their contact and advice on that side of things. Controlling? Well, if ppl in such a position are going to be fighting the laws so we can keep our hobbies I think they deserve some credit for their effort and we can show appreciation by biding by what they think is best. Department Envirnoment Climate Change are the controllers. A national group could be first with news of proposed changes and requesting support from its members to help make an affect.

So would this group support the current Jag situation? or the breeding of hybrids? or keeping poached animals?Would it's members be checked that they weren't doing the wrong thing, or would it just be a "numbers club" with a rubber sign in contract? Getting a group together that would agree on such matter would be near impossible and gaining membership would be very difficult if people had to abide to such laws, yet a lobby group would have little political pull if half it's members were doing the wrong thing...

 

[Ozzie Python]

whatever happened to the NRKA, i thought this group was being formed for this exact reason.
Or was it just a club for the elite breeders to get together for a poker night?

 

[chilli]

thanks for the info, barra

the NRKA being established would come in handy atm

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

The way I see it, the invasion of exotic species into local ecosystems is a real problem and has to be addresed. However, there are groups that are dedicated to stopping the keeping of "wildlife" in captivity. Problems like the python invasion of the Everglades in the USA create opportunities for these groups to further their cause (rather than a scientific based rational response). One strategy of these groups is to get jobs in Government to manipulate the system for their own objectives.

Exactly right. Spurious science at best used again to further whichever nutjob organisation's real agenda. I sincerely hope the U.S. herp community can band together on this short notice to have their voices heard.

Some have suggested that the situation is Australia is completely different and it won't happen here. Having spent over a decade on Government advisory committees and Boards, I strongly disagree. The move is on in Australia and the pressure is on Governments from within. I believe it is only a matter of time until our rights to enjoy reptiles are seriously eroded. A couple of months ago I flew to Sydney and met with a number of well established herpers because of this threat that we were all seeing.

I strongly believe there needs to be a national representative group to support reptile keepers and it needs to happen sooner than later. The problem is that we are so tribal in our structure and culture - we tend to form into groups that support each other and criticise others. The national group truly needs to be representative and to have the confidence of the whole hobby. I believe it should consist of a representative from each State with an elected Chairperson and enough funding to have an Executive Officer and legal support.

Couldn't agree more. The last I heard, John Wiegel is trying to do just that. Without it, we, as hobbyists, will get shouted down by the much more vocal, faith (in their cause) driven, radical animal welfare groups.

I don't think the funding will be difficult, the difficulty will be is overcoming the tribalism and forming a cohesive group with broad majority support.

If this forum is any indication of a balanced cross-section of the national herp community, we are in trouble. The amount of pointless, inane bickering that goes on over topics largely irrelevant to the health of the herp hobby really will go a long way towards destroying our chances of forming such a group. I suppose however it is not much different to national politics, no one can seem to agree, as a whole, that it is all good or all bad. We still need a functioning government, just as we, as a niche group, need to be represented within that government. What we don't want to have happen is, ending up like the Americans, caught with our pants down. We definitely need to be united as a community BEFORE someone like PETA gets a foothold into getting us (as a community) regulated right out of our hobby.

However, I do think it is important and do think the urgency is growing. For my part, I am getting old and will be winding down my herp interests in the next couple of years - for the new enthusiasts to our wonderful hobby, I think you are the ones that will feel the brunt of the global trends in over regulation fuelled by extremist groups that are already effecting the pet landscape in Australia.

Moral support is still support Doc.

So would this group support the current Jag situation? or the breeding of hybrids? or keeping poached animals?Would it's members be checked that they weren't doing the wrong thing, or would it just be a "numbers club" with a rubber sign in contract? Getting a group together that would agree on such matter would be near impossible and gaining membership would be very difficult if people had to abide to such laws, yet a lobby group would have little political pull if half it's members were doing the wrong thing...

Mate, I enjoyed our banter the other day, but this is the kind of thing that will kill our chances of putting something like this together. Touching on your points:

Jag situation. They are here, like it or not. Ferreting jags out of private collections would be exponentially more difficult than it would be to get the Burms out of the everglades. What would you propose that we as a community can do about the "situation". Myself, the same amnesty offered on chondros, etc. No point trying to defuse a bomb once it's gone off.

Breeding or keeping hybrids. See above.

Long story short, we will not all agree on every point in the minutae of the herp hobby. Such a national organisation would not be a police force, nor a place for bickering over locale specific carpet morphs. We need one simply to fight for our right to keep our hobby alive.

I am like most, not sure what tack to take. Ironically, over the last several days, I have been trying to chase up info on the status of a national organisation. Time to get off the fence I guess, and put some real effort in.

 

[CodeRed]

So would this group support the current Jag situation? or the breeding of hybrids? or keeping poached animals?Would it's members be checked that they weren't doing the wrong thing, or would it just be a "numbers club" with a rubber sign in contract? Getting a group together that would agree on such matter would be near impossible and gaining membership would be very difficult if people had to abide to such laws, yet a lobby group would have little political pull if half it's members were doing the wrong thing...

good point Jason. Members of this representative group would have to be squeaky clean to get the support of the general herp community and be taken seriously by the authorities. That rules quite a few prominant herpers out.

 

[MikeCurtin]

One step you can do to stop this is educate. Remind folks that when they donate to groups like PETA, ALF, etc., they are in fact donating to lobbyist groups which achieves their end through pushing legislative action. Very, very little funding goes to the actual helping of any animals such as the ones they put in their advertising. US and international animal "rights" groups have an agenda. For many, that agenda is to end the captive ownership and/ or propagation of ALL animals.

 

[beatlloydy]

I have heard of a prominent politician in NSW at least who supports the banning of keeping animals of any description...First name is synonomous with a plant the irish use for good luck and the surname is the opposite of less. (can that be slander if cryptically placed)?

 

[Doc]

Yes it will be difficult for a representative group to reach consensus. I will avoid responding to some of the comments about cross breeding etc here because these topics just degrade into highly emotional personal views ... I often feel so tempted to counter the emotion with fact here on APS but experience shows that this just creates more emotion and even less fact. The only way a national group could operate is with sound logic based argument and scientific fact. My experinece through the intiial attempts to start such a group is that there are some very distinguished academics that would be delighted to support such a group and combat the emotion and misinformation.

And for those of you that think this is all paranoia and rubbish all I can say that I suspect you are responding from a small information base and limited experience in dealing with Government environmental and conservation groups across Australia. The threat is real.

 

[Col J]

I have to agree with the Doc on this one. It would be a great opportunity for the animal libs to keep the ball rolling & follow the U.S. push to ban python keeping here in Oz..

Let's use the keeping of firearms as an example. We all thought it was our right to keep & use firearms & nobody would listen to the anti-gun people, so we laughed it off & sat on our hands. Next thing you know we were looking at total confiscation, even for those who had used firearms all their life & even those like myself who used them to make a living. It was a big shake-up & was only headed off by forming a national body with a voice in parliament & lobbying in political circles.

I am no politician. I have never been a member of a herp society, as I don't like 'clubs'. I have had my pythons confiscated prior to licencing, which was not pleasant. I wasn't even aware of John Weigel attempting to start a national herp society, but I would jump at the offer of membership if it was going to be along the lines of what happened with sport shooting.

Let's see it happen & form a national society. All the small clubs would maintain their entity & carry on as they have done & be affiliated with the national society.

Any takers,

Col J.

JW & Doc can run for Parliament!! Haha!

 

[ozianimals]

they are trying to make America like Australia so I don't thinkwe will introduce their laws as that will allow us to import snakes. They are trying to ban the importation of the 9 large python groups.
We already are not allowed to import reptiles .
All good from my view. Don't keep any burmese pythons.

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

Emotion and ego will definitely serve to derail the process of protecting our rights to keep reptiles. What people have to understand is that this discussion is not about who's catching what or who's importing this or that or even how do we piss and moan and discredit so and so because I don't like what they're doing. This is about preserving our right to keep our animals in captivity. Period. This aplies to every single member or non-member of this forum, and the Australian Herpetological community at large.

One thing is for certain, society and it's governmental bodies and systems, respect education and status. Alienating individuals with whom you disagree with their methods and practices WILL screw us all (including you!) out of the right to keep reptiles in captivity. Like it or not, any national reptile lobby will need all the doctors, lawyers, and academics it can get, with any interest at all in reptile keeping, to come to the table and help the herp community in Australia fight for it's rights.

I know that as a tradesman, my stepping up to argue for our rights would go unheard in government. I am fine with this. I will happily add my voice to the chorus though, to ensure that I, you, and so and so with the bloody red-tailed boas, can keep on keeping reptiles in our homes.

 

[Retic]

They are not trying to make America like Australia at all, this is about banning the keeping and import of large Boids and it is nothing to do with introducing their laws.

they are trying to make America like Australia so I don't thinkwe will introduce their laws as that will allow us to import snakes. They are trying to ban the importation of the 9 large python groups.
We already are not allowed to import reptiles .
All good from my view. Don't keep any burmese pythons.

 

[Colin]

yes I agree with Doc that we need a national organisation to look after our rights. Its something Jamie Stuart wrote about in some recent articles in Scales & Tails. The push by NSW DECC with their cage and keeping standards etc was from what I heard pushed to some extent by people with affiliations with this PETA group and other animal lib organisations. how true this is Im not certain but its something I wouldn't doubt and something that we should take seriously.

I really think we need to put aside petty differences and join a national group that represents all reptile keepers, enthusiasts, etc to make sure our rights are protected on a national scale against people that would attempt to erode them.

 

[Wild~Touch]

Aaron
You are already "doing your bit" by being actively involved with The Herpetological Society of Queensland Inc. for which I thank you.

We need more reptile society/clubs to walk the talk = lobby power

And remember Rspca is watching and waiting for a hole in our armour

Cheers
Sandee

 

[JasonL]

Mate, I enjoyed our banter the other day, but this is the kind of thing that will kill our chances of putting something like this together. QUOTE]

I am not concerned about which way the hobby is heading, I was just asking whether or not the governing group would have a criteria for it's members, or just a numbers group, happy to take anyone....
....as it wouldn't be good to be represented by someone who gets done by the authorities and is splashed over the media, that would give the opposing sides a bigger gun to shoot us with.