Banning Snakes in the USA - Next Australia?

[derekm]

I don't know how the NRKA is constituted, but here's how I think it should be constituted for maximum effect and reasonable representation. No original thinking here - this is the way most representative bodies that need to work at a national, state and local level are constituted, I think.

It should represent itself as the peak national body representing reptile keepers and deal with issues at a national level.
It should have state and territory based affiliates, not members. Individual affiliates should be affiliates by virtue of their membership of an affilliated club/association/society (see below).
It should be composed of an executive committee including a president, secretary, treasurer, state/territory delegates and special purpose office holders as required.
There should be similarly composed state/territory associations (for simplicity NSWRKA, VRKA, WARKA, etc) that should be affiliates of, and elect delegates to, ARKA.
These state/territory associations should represent themselves as the peak state bodies representing reptile keepers and therefore deal with issues at a state/territory level. (IMO, state-level associations are necessary because much of the law governing reptile keeping is state law, not federal law.)
Individual herpetological and reptile keeping clubs/associations/societies would choose to affiliate with the state RKAs and members of affilliated clubs would pay an affiliation levy to the state RKA (through their club) to cover admin costs and establish whatever 'fighting funds' are required.
Affiliated clubs/associations/societies would elect delegates to their state associations.
The state RKAs would affiliate with the ARKA and would pay a percentage of the affiliation levies they received to the ARKA to cover admin costs and establish whatever 'fighting funds' are required.

Obviously, there is a lot more detail to be worked out, but this is the basic structure that I think would be most successful and representative of members/affiliates.

 

[ihaveherps]

Snake whisperer.... I will await for the Nrka, to show their hand, though from Pythoninfinites post, he states he is not accountable, so will inform us at his leisure, he negated to explain that there have already been memberships accepted, does he not feel accountable to those who are already behind the organisation?

" this sort of organisation could go a long way to facilitating the herp community's voices being heard by some of the right people when those voices need hearing. Quite frankly, no governmental institution or otherwise, is going to listen to inane whining on an internet forum, they will want information and dialog from people with degrees, decades of experience, and professional backgrounds in the field in which they represent. What part of this is difficult to understand?"

Seeing as though you are obviously in contact with JW, ask him what his catch cry in the recent rounds with NSW DEC about the "Draft Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Reptiles" was.... I will let you in, it was "GIVE THEM NOTHING" , he chose to not communicate but stone wall, not a good way of building a rapport with a governing body.... even though the outcome of the saga was good for the short term, being difficult to deal with does not inspire confidence with the powers that be, who actually invited representatives from the private sector to be involved in the process.... it will be naieve to assume that continued actions on our behalf in a similar manner will be not taken in to account in the future, and our ability to have a say on the future of the hobby may be taken out of our hands.

Honestly lets leave this here... and await more information.... dont call me out, or I may colour more opinions before they have their chances to make their own ....

I am in no way against the NRKA as a body to act on our behalf, more-so about how, if in the wrong hands could adversely impact us. Im not stating that I would even be whole-heartedly against JW at the helm, nor anyone else, as a democratic body should be metered in any actions taken, as if from the very beginning, this latest incarnation of the NRKA is given birth on the right foot, then credability will ensue, though a negative start, may never be repaired... Im prepared to give it a chance, I just want to see the cards.


And while im here.... Derekm.... your brilliant... democratic... my vision is similar....

 

[krefft]

Great post Derekm. That has been the most constructive so far.
If members need to be financial, why not include it in the purchase price of a snake among the commercial breeders.
Ive no idea what membership will cost....say $20 for arguments sake. If every snake sold by Southern X, Snake Ranch etc had the price jacked up by $20 and the purchase of the snake came with membership to the ARKA we could start to get a healthy membership pretty quickly.
I just thought it's time we started to throw some ideas around.

 

[derekm]

And while im here.... Derekm.... your brilliant... democratic... my vision is similar....

Thanks, ihaveherps but, as I posted, no original thinking - just a description of what works elsewhere for similarly vulnerable hobbies.

 

[Sdaji]

Wow, just a few minutes after I had given up on this thread being of any use, things seem back on track. Maybe this thread can be productive after all.

A range of options will need to be looked at, but what you have described, Derek, looks like a good one to consider.

My concern is that the reptile world being as it is, positions of power are often abused by people with less than stirling actions and intentions. It would be good if there was some safety net to prevent this, although I must admit I can't think of a good way to facilitate this. Perhaps someone has ideas.

 

[derekm]

Great post Derekm. That has been the most constructive so far.
If members need to be financial, why not include it in the purchase price of a snake among the commercial breeders.
Ive no idea what membership will cost....say $20 for arguments sake. If every snake sold by Southern X, Snake Ranch etc had the price jacked up by $20 and the purchase of the snake came with membership to the ARKA we could start to get a healthy membership pretty quickly.
I just thought it's time we started to throw some ideas around.

Because I'm not comfortable with ARKA having members directly, I would amend that approach slightly to "the purchase of the snake came with a $20 payment to the state RKA representing the purchaser's affiliation fee; and the purchaser received a receipt for the affiliation fee that they could show to any club they joined as proof that their affiliation fee had been paid. Alternatively if the purchaser could show the vendor proof of current financial membership of an ARKA affiliated club or a receipt for an affiliation fee paid earlier in that financial year, the $20 levy would not be charged twice in the same financial year."

Of course, if commercial suppliers want to increase their prices a little to help ARKA establish a fighting fund more quickly that they otherwise might, that's a great idea too!

 

[derekm]

My concern is that the reptile world being as it is, positions of power are often abused by people with less than stirling actions and intentions. It would be good if there was some safety net to prevent this, although I must admit I can't think of a good way to facilitate this. Perhaps someone has ideas.

That's my concern too. My experience is that allowing the peak bodies to have affiliate organisations that elect delegates, but not to have members themselves, keeps the aims of the peak bodies closely aligned with their affiliates - on whom they will depend for their funding under the model I suggested.

It is not possible to keep potential abusers of power out of organisations. The best that can be done is to limit their ability to do damage and to limit the attractiveness of the organisation to such people by having strong checks and balances.

 

[derekm]

Oh - one more thing I forgot. We should invite the amphibian keepers in too!!!

 

[RemoverAccount]

you cant have it both ways people - you either protect native species and breed within this integrity - or you try and support a money making venture making bastardised versions of our beautiful native snakes... it seems the later is already well entrenched here, and in reality we arent too far away from the US after all.

If you are serious about not only keeping native herps but protecting their integrity there are a few hard decisions to make. I for one cant see those needed decisions from happening here... too much else to gain and at the end of the day whats said in here only partly explains the reality of the market that is herps in this country... even the novice collector has a market share and vested interest in bastardisation... while this crap continues to go on - your 'hobby' will always be at a disadvantage!!

Talk is cheap... and you cant have it both ways.

 

[ihaveherps]

Derekm.... jeebus throw your hat in the ring for Gods sake, Im liking the cut of your jib....

Although im not at all fond of the membership by animal purchase idea.... there has to be an option, although it would assist the membership drive, forcing people to have a say is wrong, and names would win. I would hate to see the day when someone without a instanly recognisable name lose their seat, to a less worthy candidate whom was more widely known.

 

[derekm]

you cant have it both ways people - you either protect native species and breed within this integrity - or you try and support a money making venture making bastardised versions of our beautiful native snakes... it seems the later is already well entrenched here, and in reality we arent too far away from the US after all.

If you are serious about not only keeping native herps but protecting their integrity there are a few hard decisions to make. I for one cant see those needed decisions from happening here... too much else to gain and at the end of the day whats said in here only partly explains the reality of the market that is herps in this country... even the novice collector has a market share and vested interest in bastardisation... while this crap continues to go on - your 'hobby' will always be at a disadvantage!!

Talk is cheap... and you cant have it both ways.

You could be right, but what leads me to believe that it is possible to have it both ways is that the native bird keeping community has been around (legitimately) for much longer than we have, is much larger than we are, and they have been having it both ways for many years. There are breeders who specialise in morph parrots and breeders trying to keep their lines as close to 'wild-type' as possible. (It is even still possible, without too much trouble, to buy 'wild-type' captive-bred budgies!) The native bird keeping community have the same quasi-religious 'pure vs. morph' arguments that we regularly see on this forum, but they have been having them for a lot longer.

Also interesting to note, and possibly relevant to this discussion, is that the law governing export of natives and import of exotics is the same or very similar for birds and reptiles.

 

[krefft]

I would have thought that the further away we got from pure/wild type the less of an argument there would be for those wanting us to leave them in the wild.

 

[Weezer]

Derek, you reasonable devil. You are definitely on track. What stands out as the major hurdle, at least in these fledgling stages of discussion, is the divisiveness that unfortunately is not going to change overnight, if ever.

So the question is: how do we unify a large group whilst watering down the effects of our differing opinion, without watering down the effect itself. And obviously that answer is by bringing together the reptile and bird communities; the latter being more versed and slightly ahead in regards to legislative bureaucracy. We are then, by definition and design, going to have to consider opinions from those members from outside the herp community who have something to offer in terms of direction without having a direct interest in the financial result.

A Pay for play concept (snake sales incl reg fees) could so easily be distorted and corrupted, given that it will hand comtrol and incentive to those whose interests I have highlighted as already ebing dubious- the incentive will not be for us as consumers to buy herps; but for the high volume breeders to gather the numbers- it can serve no use at all. We already see in various guises how a little ad money, sponsorship dollars, or friends with media interests can equate to skewed accounts and stifled opinions... the concept of generating membership numbers through large scale operations is putting all our eggs in the same commercially driven basket.

Derek is spot on with his structural model- the key will be to implemenet guidelines and a voting/decision/disciplinary process that gives power to no one person, group or demographic.
I too believe that we can have it both ways- because those of us who are wild-type groupies are not going to sway, just as those with Jag$ in their sights will not budge. So there HAS to be room for all of us, because if any one ideal is presented as legit, then it will alwys be detrimental to the other ideal,and therefore the bigger picture.

Unavoidable is the political heaving that will occur, which some have suggested is not productive. I think this thread was productive several pages ago- but what is obvious is that the frontman for this "movement" for want of a better term, is going to need to be diplomatic- he is going to have the hobby's interests at heart- be a people person and not a person who reverts to insulting or denigrating his brethren, whilst being open minded and ballsy enough to tell it like it is in the face of unrest. A couple of people come to mind; and they are not those prophets who are self-prophecising before our eyes. All the knowledge in the world doesn't change one's character; and with such passionate and polar views on what is best and who should run the game; the big dog is going to need to be the most honest, diplomatic, fair but firm leader the world has ever seen. Self appointed idols, hypocrites, hardliners and those who are here for the glory need not apply; after reading through this thread it is clear that the movement is nowhere near as advanced as some would have us believe, yet it is in some people's interests to imply otherwise to ensure they get a nice piece of the action when the dirty work gets done.

So.... let us assume that nothing has been done to date. Start fresh, take ideas; collate them, present them and formulate a working model. Then we will see who is interested in self-gratification, and who realy gives an f about the hobby, and the people.

THEN we can decide who gets to be God. And hopefully be the time this process is ready to graduate to the next- the false idols will be found out and allow the real Slim Shady to please stand up.

 

[krefft]

Weezer your saying alot without actually saying anything.
Your clearly intelligent, why not offer some actual ideas rather than just a running commentary on "Self appointed idols, hypocrites, hardliners and those who are here for the glory.... "
Get over it and offer something useful.

 

[Weezer]

We are...going to have to consider opinions from those members from outside the herp community who have something to offer in terms of direction ....

....Derek is spot on with his structural model- . ...

So.... let us assume that nothing has been done ..Start fresh, take ideas; collate them, present them and formulate a working model. .

yeah...ummm...sorry mate I will start working on your 2000 page thesis right now.

Sorry for quoting myself, I figured you must have missed my last post...and I couldnt find any ideas in your posts to quote. But it will be sweet to hear your ideas, Kreftttttty.

 

[derekm]

So the question is: how do we unify a large group whilst watering down the effects of our differing opinion, without watering down the effect itself. And obviously that answer is by bringing together the reptile and bird communities; the latter being more versed and slightly ahead in regards to legislative bureaucracy. We are then, by definition and design, going to have to consider opinions from those members from outside the herp community who have something to offer in terms of direction without having a direct interest in the financial result.

The model I described earlier covered a 'vertical' affiliation process. Our relationship with the bird keeping communities (let's face it - parrot keepers, pigeon keepers and poultry keepers have few common interests) may best be covered by a 'horizontal' affiliation process. This may be no more than a loose agreement to share information regularly and openly, co-operate and share costs where a particular campaign suits both our interests, and not get in each other's way. They point is that it needs to be set up in a manner that encourages co-operation and discourages power plays.

Unavoidable is the political heaving that will occur, which some have suggested is not productive. I think this thread was productive several pages ago- but what is obvious is that the frontman for this "movement" for want of a better term, is going to need to be diplomatic- he is going to have the hobby's interests at heart- be a people person and not a person who reverts to insulting or denigrating his brethren, whilst being open minded and ballsy enough to tell it like it is in the face of unrest. A couple of people come to mind; and they are not those prophets who are self-prophecising before our eyes. All the knowledge in the world doesn't change one's character; and with such passionate and polar views on what is best and who should run the game; the big dog is going to need to be the most honest, diplomatic, fair but firm leader the world has ever seen. Self appointed idols, hypocrites, hardliners and those who are here for the glory need not apply; after reading through this thread it is clear that the movement is nowhere near as advanced as some would have us believe, yet it is in some people's interests to imply otherwise to ensure they get a nice piece of the action when the dirty work gets done.

Defining a 'frontman' in the model I described could be interesting. One detail I omitted is that I see the executives on the ARKA and state RKA committees (president, secretary, treasurer and special purpose officers) as running each organisation's processes and contributing to policy discussions, but having no voting power on those committees. All voting power would be vested in the elected delegates representing the affiliated clubs at the state level and representing the states at the national level.

The president of an organisation set up this way is the obvious 'frontman' (unless the voting delegates decided to elect a a non-voting PR officer to perform this role) but, in either case, this 'frontman' - a non-voting executive - would be limited in their official capacity to publicly promoting only those positions supported by the voting delegates. Checks and balances - gotta love them!

As before - no original ideas - just what I have seen work in similar contexts.

 

[Colin]

the model put forward by derekm in post 161 is the same direction I was thinking. although one of the things Im hoping this NRKA can achieve is to help bring in a national licencing system, I feel each state should have representatives to cover their members state interests as well as combining for national interests. each local area reptile/herp club society is probably a good way to assemble members and have a delegate to voice their opinions. these delegattes can meet at a state level to discuss issues and then have a state delegate (or two) to represent them at the national level. the national level could be made up of these state delegates and the experienced keepers, academics etc.

I agree we need to be kept informed of whats going on and that is exactly what our state representatives will be doing and passing on information to their state local herp society members. - just throwing some more ideas and thoughts into this thread.

Im not comfortable with some breeders placing a NRKA surcharge on animals they sell.. we cant force people to join.. but we should encourage them to do so willingly. as ive suggested a starting point at local herp and reptile societies, why dont we start there? and have a surcharge on membership that also includes NRKA.

Derek is spot on with his structural model- the key will be to implemenet guidelines and a voting/decision/disciplinary process that gives power to no one person, group or demographic.
I too believe that we can have it both ways- because those of us who are wild-type groupies are not going to sway, just as those with Jag$ in their sights will not budge. So there HAS to be room for all of us, because if any one ideal is presented as legit, then it will alwys be detrimental to the other ideal,and therefore the bigger picture.

I also agree there room for both of these groups (pure and morphs) and I have a foot in both camps. petty bickering over these issues is counterproductive and only causing division in the hobby at a time we need to unite together. I suggest these issues be put aside and respect that we all have different views on some issues. It would help though weezer to leave the $ off jags as for some its not about money, its about the animals. sarcasm like this detracts from an excellent post and some intelligent ideas. cheers.

 

[Ramsayi]

To my way of thinking a self appointed group no matter how much experience they may or may not collectively have is starting way behind the eight ball.

Much better to ask for nominations for those positions in each state and the list of nominees get put to a vote by herp societies throughout the country.

As a collective voice, herp keepers are by far and away a very small minority and I see more value in trying to align with the birdos. At least that way we have a bigger voice,as well as being able to draw on their past experiences.

 

[Weezer]

You're right Colin, I have no doubts that alot of Jag devotees are not thinking dollar signs, and it would be hypocritical for me to suggest that is not the case when I have a pretty pair of milky Darwins in my living room with a care factor of zero regarding their future worth as breeders. I just think they look hot.

The biggest worry is,as Colin said; we need to be uniting right NOW- but the reality is that Australian herpetology is at a sensitive crossroads - on the horizon right now are Jags, future Albino strains and questionable methods for obtining their colour, no doubt, and a furious debate over hybridisation- and funnily enough, we (I) are the first to buy a snake based on aesthetic pleasure, and the first to destroy the notion of mongrels/hybrids/intergades/morphs (choose your own adventure there) and RP's when their worth will be measured in aesthetic terms before the first legal Jag Movement Advice gets processed- and I am guilty as hell in that regard... But not beyond admitting it either.

So any model we come up with needs to take this into account- the "changing face"- because as we have seen in the last 5 years alone- the shape of the hobby is going to barely resemble it's current form in 5 years, let alone ten- so the model in place is going to have to have a little flexibility- and THAT is the grey area we often argue over.

But with upstanding contributors like Derek, and longtime mebers like ihaveherps prepared to keep it real, all we are missing is that individual who is free of conflicts of interest, educated and accessible enough to be the PR face of the movement, and with enough time to turn their life upside down in the name of the hobby. We could all add our own criteria to the list and never find the truly perfect specimen.

So then we need to start listing the perfect weapon and then shape it until we have the best version we are capable of, right ? With any luck it might resemble the original blueprint enough to satisfy everyone, even if in small doses.

This room isn't so hot anymore.

 

[Colin]

good points rams.. I also feel we would benefit from being aligned with the bird keepers but think we need to have some sort of structure in place first that represents reptile keepers before any alignment could be reached. to approach the birdos as a group of dissjointed rabble that cant agree to disagree on some issues and unite as a whole, but want to join up with them to ride on their shirt tails for safety in numbers wouldnt be taken seriously or on board. we first need to sort ourselves out and establish some sort of national group with a structured heirachy with some integrity, direction and stability before we could approach another group to seek some sort of mutual collective power.

and your right weezer, its going to be difficult or near impossible to please all the people all the time, and yes we need to have some aims and policies in place for now and the future. but first we need to start with a base and the first brick.. it wont be perfect and we will probably make mistakes early, but if the group and the members are tolerant of each other, willing to be a little flexible for the greater good and learn from any mistakes and keep moving forward then i think all the trimmings and much of the finer details can and will come later.. we need to start with a base structure without too much attention to fine details and start to grow from this position. to debate too many of the finer issues first in my opinion will just create division and stop the whole thing from starting and moving forward.

for those that are interested in the american situation..
Bill Nelson, U.S. Senator from Florida: Media Release: Key Senate panel passes import ban on giant snakes

Key Senate panel passes import ban on giant snakes
December 10, 2009
WASHINGTON, D.C. - A key Senate panel today approved Sen. Bill Nelson’s bill to ban nine giant constrictor snakes, sending a strong signal that more may be done to safeguard U.S. wildlife and natural resources. The measure now goes to the full Senate for a vote.